Battle of the Somme 90th Anniversary July 1st

[davem]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

You know, davem, despite all of the scholarly evidence presented herein, and even as I express my horsemasterly doubts amongst the shreds of possible supporting evidence, what keeps bubbling to the surface of my brain seems to be, "yeah, but wouldn't it be cool if it WAS true."

Exactly my feelings. Well, the 'sensible' part of me veers towards it being a dream, but I do like the idea of it actually having happened. Looking at the 'evidence' I don't think we can dismiss the possibility.

Whatever, we shouldn't let the truth get in the way of a good story.

[Child of the 7th Age]

More reflections on horses in the war.....

I once read that an astounding two and a half million horses were treated in vet clinics for injuries sustained from the war; about a half million of these died. These figures may or may not be precisely accurate but they certainly suggest that the animals were fairly widespread at the front. (Figures are for all injuries and deaths, not just the British.) There were a handful of cavalry charges as late as 1918, despite the fact that these were virtual suicide. Tolkien, however, was unlikely to be involved with those.

Most of the horses were used for transporting materials to the trenches. In that day and time, horses and mules were more reliable than lorries that were prone to breakdowns. Here is a description of one war horse:

He (Sailor) would work for 24 hours a day without winking. He was quiet as a lamb and as clever as a thoroughbred, but he looked like nothing on earth, so we lost him. The whole artillery battery kissed him goodbye and the drivers and gunners who fed him nearly cried."

I suppose it is remotely possible that JRRT could have found himself on horseback bringing something up to the trenches and that he managed to get lost. Although the front as a whole was fairly stationary, there were very rare instances when one side fell back and the other went forward, leaving a short stretch of trenches in different hands.

Here is a photo of horses being loaded onto the boats and sent to the front: here. Anyone see that big boned hunter?

Maybe a dream, maybe real....who can really say?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by davem

I don't see that Tolkien couldn't have found himself in territory which had been occupied by German troops temporarily ('hence behind their lines').

Originally Posted by Child

Although the front as a whole was fairly stationary, there were very rare instances when one side fell back and the other went forward, leaving a short stretch of trenches in different hands.

But in such cases, the area in which Tolkien would have been stationed would no longer be behind exisitng enemy lines, and so the chances of him coming across any German soldiers in the manner described, let alone cavalry riders, would be negligible.

While I appreciate the romantic appeal of wanting to believe the tale true, and while the possibility that it did happen cannot entirely be dismissed, the weight of evidence points to it being extremely unlikely. Given the conditions in the trenches and the effect of such conditions on the men serving at the front, however, it is not at all unlikely that such a dream would come to seem real to Tolkien, perhaps even to the extent that he later genuinely believed it to have happened.

[Mister Underhill]

davem, out of curiosity, is there some correspondence you had with the Friar that you didn't publish here? The email you posted from him doesn't clarify whether he intended dream or reality for his anecdote.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

davem, out of curiosity, is there some correspondence you had with the Friar that you didn't publish here? The email you posted from him doesn't clarify whether he intended dream or reality for his anecdote.

Only a quick one mentioning that he intends to put the letters in his archive. Didn't want to pester him. The way I read his original BBC post it seems he got from Michael that it was an actual event.

(BTW, his email address is not a secret - I found it just by Googling his name)