Elves socioeconomic system.

[mormegil]

Reading through this I'm still left asking: How much actual power did the Elf rulers have? We have a good idea with Gondor and their monarchy but I don't feel it was the same. I feel more that the rulers were the wisest or greatest and their followers were more willing to follow as opposed to subjects to a crown.

[littlemanpoet]

Your ideas remind me, Mormegil, of The Prince. Love or fear? Which is the stronger engine to garner support for government? Which lasts longer? Which is harder to achieve, for a Man? for an Elf?

[Anguirel]

LMP and morm, you've both raised questions that I just can't resist wading into. You see, I'm at heart (well, one of them) a medieval historian. Inheritance, suzerainty, appanages, fiefs, septs, feuds, royal authority...these things make me excited.

Ahem. LMP first.

Originally Posted by LMP

Imagine that you are a 1,000 year old Elf and you have a brother who is a mere 200 years younger than you, and your father is roughly 1200 years older than either of you. While there are battles and warfare, there is no guarantee that father is going to die and pass on his realm to his first son any time soon. It could take another couple thousand years. So what do you do? What do you do if you're the second son? I know what I would do: I wouldn't wait around, I'd go and seek to create a new realm for myself where the Elvish population is sparse. But Tolkien's Elves didn't do that so much, did they? They stayed in the realms of their fathers and did'nt even wait - rather, it was as if they hoped never to become the hereditary ruler of their father's realm, for who wants father to die? What a strange situation....

Well, under primogeniture, even among us humans the second son is quite unlikely to inherit the kingdom, fief, whatever. The real difference is that even the heir apparent is in a sort of second son situation. Barring misfortune, as you say, none of the sons will inherit. I certainly hope Cirdan didn't have any sons; they must have been frightfully frustrated if so...or imagine, say, Ingwe, who almost certainly had a numerous throng of descendants and whose chances of being dethroned were literally nil!

So, as you say, sons (first and second) are probably more likely to resort to ambitious adventuring. This immortality of Elves might have, therefore, increased their drive to acquire temporal wealth. We do actually see a lot of Elves founding realms-in the Silmarillion. In Valinor, the royal families are cooped up under their unquestioned heads, drifting from Valarin hall to Valarin hall. The Rebellion of the Noldor must have released a lot of supressed creative and acquisitive energy. We can see this in the magnificent dreams and thirst for power of Galadriel, for instance.

Once in Beleriand, the situation is rather different (quite remniscent of the Crusader States) in that even the Kings are in daily danger of death. Inheritance becomes a frequent occurence in need of control under a system. It seems from, say, the mostly orderly transitions of the High Kingship, that the Elves early settled that that system should be basically primogeniture-following Feanor's own precedent, I suppose.

Imagine what might have happened without such an inheritance system with such Anguirel-Idols as Celegorm, Curufin and Maeglin running about!

Yet still there are so many cadet royals that many kingdoms like Nargothrond or Thargelion are founded by younger siblings and their descendants.

Even in the Third Age we see an example of such a pioneering elven realm-Legolas' land in Ithilien, because despite being "Prince of Mirkwood" (allow me to spit on that absurd phrase) he wasn't likely to inherit it anytime soon...

Now, morm. You wonder about actual power possessed by Elvenkings.

I say it depends on the circumstances, time, and even the personality of the ruler involved.

Let's take those alpha-Elvenkings-Finwe, Ingwe, Elwe, Olwe. I imagine these as sort of ancestor-gods roled into chieftains. They exemplify the characteristics of the people they govern. It's not so much that Finwe rules the Noldor, as that he is the Noldor, and in my view the reason the High Kingship in Middle-Earth foundered is that by the Third Age there was no one who could...act as a symbol of the entire Noldorin race.

Before arriving in Valinor, these Kings would, I think, have had a great deal of power and responsibility in practical terms; as protectors, guardians, certainly shepherds, fathers of their people, and war-leaders when needed too. Their role in Valinor would be more ceremonial and diplomatic, with perhaps little need for authoritarian decisions, acting as mediators with the Valar.

Returning to Beleriand, by the First Age things would be a lot more variable, but probably generally the Kings would be-and would need to be-extremely powerful. They after all kept large enough armies in the field to keep Morgoth locked in for some time. That needs unquestioned obedience. While Thingol, safe in Melian's Girdle, wouldn't need such centralised power, I'm pretty sure he'd demand it anyway, as the most venerable Elven ruler left.

There are exceptions to this. If you ask me Finrod and Orodreth would both have ruled Nargothrond with the consent and counsel of a large aristocracy-an aristocracy who were to reject Finrod and keep Orodreth generally sedate. (They're loyal to the House of Finarfin though-Celegorm can't usurp Nargothrond directly, it seems.) Elwing's rule over the Havens probably needed the advice of her nobles.

But generally, I don't hold with this "Elves are proto-democrats/anarchist-syndicalists/fully paid up members of the Green Party" stuff. They were in a feudal situation and would have needed feudal government of one kind or another. Into the Third Age, Thranduil of the Hobbit is very much an absolute faery-king, able to march to war on a whim if he chooses, riding at the head of his hunt.

Galadriel and Celeborn's rule of Lothlorien, Elrond's rule of Imladris and Cirdan's of Mithlond are all different cases, however. Galadriel rules as "Lady", and she and Celeborn are stewards of a realm without its true king, drowned Amroth. Elrond and Cirdan both rule the remnants of the High Kingship in Lindon. Elrond has some royal blood, but rules, it seems to me, primus inter pares, in a quite collegiate way almost. He is Master, and I can really see him Master of Rivendell College Cambridge! (I get the feeling he's Cambridge. Don't know why exactly.) Cirdan is vaguely noble but is really there because no one else with a real claim is, well, left. Notice that these positions seem to be quite interchangeable; Celeborn, without any hereditary claim, succeeds Elrond at Rivendell. Perhaps the Elves came late to tanistry here!

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Celeborn, without any hereditary claim, succeeds Elrond at Rivendell. Perhaps the Elves came late to tanistry here!

To focus on one very small point in a large, intriguing post, Celeborn was, after Elladan and Elrohir, the Heir Apparent under primogeniture to the Sindarin lordship after Elrond- assuming that Men, by the simple fact of being Men, are excluded.

This assumes also (and I believe it justified) that Elladan and Elrohir died/went to Valinor before Celeborn assumed the lordship of Rivendell.

With Elrond gone and his offspring dead/gone as well, the next closest kinsman along the Telerin line was Celeborn, grandson of Elmo, Thingol's younger brother.

So, to be pedantic, 'twas a situation that remained proper within a primogenituric context.

[Anguirel]

Ah. But Elrond always seemed to me to be ruling Rivendell (a part of the mostly faded realm of Lindon) by right of his Noldorin descent...

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

They exemplify the characteristics of the people they govern. It's not so much that Finwe rules the Noldor, as that he is the Noldor, and in my view the reason the High Kingship in Middle-Earth foundered is that by the Third Age there was no one who could...act as a symbol of the entire Noldorin race.

When you put it in that way, it reminds me very much of ents and Treebeard...

Did the ents adopt this part of old Elvish culture when the adopted language? Who knows. Or maybe that kind of leadership was sort of "natural" for ents too...

[Macalaure]

Very interesting post, Anguirel. However, I disagree at some points.

Originally Posted by Anguirel

So, as you say, sons (first and second) are probably more likely to resort to ambitious adventuring. This immortality of Elves might have, therefore, increased their drive to acquire temporal wealth. We do actually see a lot of Elves founding realms-in the Silmarillion. In Valinor, the royal families are cooped up under their unquestioned heads, drifting from Valarin hall to Valarin hall. The Rebellion of the Noldor must have released a lot of supressed creative and acquisitive energy. We can see this in the magnificent dreams and thirst for power of Galadriel, for instance.

I don't think immortality has a lot to do with it. The Elves were content in Valinor and the heirs were content with most probably never getting into power. This is just the nature of the Elves, Men would have found it much harder to cope with it. The Elves don't start to demand realms of their own until Melkor influences them (yes, even Galadriel) and with the Vanyar even this doesn't work.

Even in the Third Age we see an example of such a pioneering elven realm-Legolas' land in Ithilien, because despite being "Prince of Mirkwood" he wasn't likely to inherit it anytime soon...

Again, I don't think Legolas left Mirkwood because there wasn't anything to inherit there. He left because he liked Ithilien better (who could blame him for that?). Being a prince, of course, he then took some of his father's people with him. I don't recall if this is stated, but does Legolas ask for permission to do it? This is important, I think.

Returning to Beleriand, by the First Age things would be a lot more variable, but probably generally the Kings would be-and would need to be-extremely powerful. They after all kept large enough armies in the field to keep Morgoth locked in for some time. That needs unquestioned obedience.

I'm not sure whether you are still referring to the alpha-Elvenkings here. If so, then I disagree. Prior to the Bragollach, Fingolfin made up his mind and wanted to attack Morgoth with all power of Elves and Men. Maedhros liked the cushions of his couch better, and that was it. And prior to the Nirnaeth, Fingon's power was obviously not enough to get Orodreth to move. Even in Beleriand, the power of the High Kings was few more than ceremonial, I think. Fingolfin and Fingon ruled Mithrim - farther their influence did not spread. The siege of Angband only worked because the leaders of the three houses of the Noldor agreed to it, not because Maedhros and Finrod obeyed.
I don't think that the High Kingship of the Noldor held a lot of power, or if it did, it at least wasn't used to be exercised. Turgon, the High King's son, completely vanished with a lot of the King's folk from one day to the other without leaving an address and without asking for leave. Later, Turgon himself becomes King, but he is in no position to effectively rule anything but his own realm.
If you're referring to beta-kings like the early Turgon etc., then you might be right.

I think it is similar with the Teleri of Beleriand. Officially, Thingol is the King of them all, even the Laiquendi if I recall it correctly. But what did his word count in the Falas or in Ossiriand (Ossiriand is particularly interesting, as they are the only Elves to not have a proper ruler at all. Ah! Got it. That's why they're called Green-elves )? A lot of the Sindar were wandering around the whole of Beleriand and the lands to the north. Though they were under the rule of Thingol, they were virtually free - how could an order reach them? To me, this contrasts a lot to the likes of Beleg, Mablung or Eöl, over whom Thingol's rule is much stronger and more immediate.

[Kuruharan]

I'm not sure whether you are still referring to the alpha-Elvenkings here. If so, then I disagree. Prior to the Bragollach, Fingolfin made up his mind and wanted to attack Morgoth with all power of Elves and Men. Maedhros liked the cushions of his couch better, and that was it. And prior to the Nirnaeth, Fingon's power was obviously not enough to get Orodreth to move. Even in Beleriand, the power of the High Kings was few more than ceremonial, I think. Fingolfin and Fingon ruled Mithrim - farther their influence did not spread. The siege of Angband only worked because the leaders of the three houses of the Noldor agreed to it, not because Maedhros and Finrod obeyed.
I don't think that the High Kingship of the Noldor held a lot of power, or if it did, it at least wasn't used to be exercised. Turgon, the High King's son, completely vanished with a lot of the King's folk from one day to the other without leaving an address and without asking for leave. Later, Turgon himself becomes King, but he is in no position to effectively rule anything but his own realm.
If you're referring to beta-kings like the early Turgon etc., then you might be right.

I'd assumed he was referring to the kings in their own realms.

What I wonder about is the structure of said monarchies. I'm not sure that any of them really answer to the description of feudal with vassals and fiefs, etc. Elven monarchies might be closer to absolutism, in the sense that the king maintains a centralized government without a whole lot of delegation of power (maybe that should be "permanent delegation of power" but that gets tangled up with the Elven lifespan).