Eorling Mead Hall Planning/Discussion Thread

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Pio, now would be a good time to post Lommy's. Or I can add it myself to my own post after work...?

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EDIT:

Done . . . and thanks!

~*~ Pio

[JennyHallu]

Fea, luv...could you send Modtryth to Marenil's room to discuss how they'll handle the accounts? He's working on taking the reins of the stewardship. LMP, I'd also like some word from you on just what, exactly, Marenil is responsible for. I would have thought the Steward would be handling hiring, honestly, at least for artisan labor and tasks involving access to the coffers. And I foresee some clashing between Marenil's experience and Saeri's earnestness...Saeri's new to the job, and Marenil hasn't had to deal with female authority higher than a housekeeper for 15 years. He took on a lot of the roles of Farlen's Lady...

It would be great to see a list of Saeryn's, Marenil's, and Thornden's duties, as well, perhaps, as those duties Eodwine prefers to make himself.
And as steward, shouldn't Marenil be attending the meeting between the Lord and Lady and the contractors?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Fea, luv...could you send Modtryth to Marenil's room to discuss how they'll handle the accounts?

Sure I can. Just had to go to work first before I posted again. I can have Saeryn ask Modtryth to send Marenil down when he's done...?

And I foresee some clashing between Marenil's experience and Saeri's earnestness...

Oh, certainly. Saeryn's got experience in her old household, but not in this one. Same goes for Marenil. No doubt they'll be stepping on each other's toes left and right until Eodwine sorts things out.

It would be great to see a list of Saeryn's, Marenil's, and Thornden's duties,

I agree, that way I know which rules I'm breaking when I have her doing somebody else's.

[JennyHallu]

Originally Posted by Fea

I agree, that way I know which rules I'm breaking when I have her doing somebody else's.

Exactly.

Of course there's also the joy of eventually getting a functional, smoothrunning household...if we feel like it. (And eventually we probably will. Settling new people in with fewer hiccups allows the other trouble we create for ourselves to be more far fetched.

Oh and a question for Lommy: How fluent is Modtryth in the Rohirric tongue?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Settling new people in with fewer hiccups allows the other trouble we create for ourselves to be more far fetched.

So true. Adventures are just such a pain when you're busy with chores, you know?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Oh and a question for Lommy: How fluent is Modtryth in the Rohirric tongue?

She will be away for more than a week, but as we have discussed and created our characters at length together, I can answer this.

Modtryth is a native speaker. She has been born and is raised in Rohan, in a rohanian household (his father being one too) and is pretty knowledgeable of her language skills... She might have a bit "northern-rohanian" accent as Stigend, but that should be not a problem.

[Nogrod]

I hope our planning-party will assemble today. I had already written a post to start it but then I found a few things I had to check with Celuien and lmp first (I've PM'd them and hope to have their answers soon enough).

Fea: did you write Saeryn to the table where all of us (Eodwine, Garstan and Stigend) were sitting or somewhere where Eodwine was alone?

[JennyHallu]

Ha! Fea...Marenil "in need of a diversion"? Saeri has no idea what a juggernaut Marenil's new appointment has released...hehehe...He'll eventually give her a "talking-to" about the role of Eodwine's Lady...

And I think we may need a full-time housekeeper, especially as the building grows. And I wonder if we should build a second residential wing. The one we have is getting filled up.

Ok...my ideas on jobs:

Eodwine:
oversees all these, of course, and should have at least a finger, and no more than a hand, in every pie, unless something goes wrong. Saeryn would probably take a more active role in overseeing the housekeeper than Eodwine.

Saeryn:
Oversees housekeeper
Hostess for guests
Has authority to make decisions for Eodwine in the lord's absence

Marenil (Steward):

Keeps the books for the Emnet
Hears and filters callers on Eodwine (as any good secretary would)
Oversees contractual labor, housekeeper, almbudsman


Has authority to make decisions for Eodwine in the lord's and lady's absence

Thornden (Almbudsman):

Spokesman for Eodwine or his steward
Tax collector
Herald of sorts
Eodwine's squire and aide-de-camp in time of war

Not-yet-existent housekeeper (Modtryth?):

Keeps the books for the Hall (Answerable to Marenil)
Makes lists for market days
Final decision on purchases of foodstuffs.


Oversees domestic labor (Answerable to Saeryn)

Kara (Cook):
Prepares menus and meals for household and guests.
Keeps inventory of pantries and larders.

Leof (Ostler):
Cares for and exercises horses, mules, and ponies of household and guests.
Cares for and repairs tack and equipment thereof
Keeps inventories of grainbins and other usable supplies

Trystan (general labor):


Does what he's told



? (Maid):

Does general cleaning, cares for guest and household rooms.
Does or helps with laundry and mending.

Does or helps with market.Helps in kitchen on feastdays?

Garwine (Master-of-Arms):
Oversees security of the Lord's holdings
Oversees mercenaries and armsmen sworn to Eodwine (I assume at some point Eodwine shall need more than one armsman, especially with the rapid growth of his household)
Keeps books for these expenses.

Garstan (Stonemason) & Stigend (Carpenter):
Artisans sworn to Eodwine
Performs work to rebuild Hall...we'll have to rethink that when the Hall's done.

Characters who aren't quite guests:
Manawyth (Bard):
His role as bard is one with rather loosely defined duties, and as such he falls really under the purview of no one but Eodwine, just because he's not a laborer to need direct supervision.

Lys:
Though I assume he will take up some duty when he heals (Pageboy? Groom?), he's not yet capable of it.

The children (Garmund, Cnebba, Lèoðern): duties not really defined...probably more as helpers to their own parents than anything more formal.

Guests:
Linduial
Degas
Falco
Nain

I'll edit more into this as I think of it and write it up. For now, what do ya'll think?EDIT: Added more people and tasks. I don't know whom of the servants of the hall are literate or not...Marenil is, and obviously the lord and lady, and Thornden, but I don't think anyone's considered it much beyond those. I've also added tasks it looks to me could use filled, that aren't right now. Marenil may advise keeping an eye out for laborers to fill these positions.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

And I wonder if we should build a second residential wing. The one we have is getting filled up.

Funny you should mention that. I had just suggested via PM to lmp & Celuien, that as a part of the renovation we could build more lodging or something and not just a long corridor with no other functions... Marenil might bring that up?

[Kath]

That looks fine to me Jenny, except that I think the 'making list for market day' is more likely to be Kara and Frodides' job rather than the housekeeper, as they will have a better idea of what they've used and what is needed.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Fea, luv...could you send Modtryth to Marenil's room to discuss how they'll handle the accounts? He's working on taking the reins of the stewardship. LMP, I'd also like some word from you on just what, exactly, Marenil is responsible for. I would have thought the Steward would be handling hiring, honestly, at least for artisan labor and tasks involving access to the coffers. And I foresee some clashing between Marenil's experience and Saeri's earnestness...Saeri's new to the job, and Marenil hasn't had to deal with female authority higher than a housekeeper for 15 years. He took on a lot of the roles of Farlen's Lady...

It would be great to see a list of Saeryn's, Marenil's, and Thornden's duties, as well, perhaps, as those duties Eodwine prefers to make himself.
And as steward, shouldn't Marenil be attending the meeting between the Lord and Lady and the contractors?

I haven't time to answer this right now, busy busy busy! Except for this: Yes, Marenil should be part of the meeting too. Eodwine will be apologizing to him for his failure to think of it. What I'd like is if Marenil could make these very suggestions in the RP that you're making here. What do you think? It could be interesting.

Nogrod, please post up. I won't have time to introduce the thing. Perhaps you could just put suitable words in Eodwine's mouth?

As for a residential wing, we're all thinking too much in modern terms. A Mead Hall was a place in which people just parked themselves in the main Hall as they could find room. Eodwine will be against adding a new wing on two grounds: 1. expense (he doesn't have much cashflow); 2. He thinks that the open hall is good enough for overflow guests. This is what he'll say when asked. If you want your characters to argue the point with Eodwine, by all means go for it.

Let the conflict ensue!

And Trystan, Eodwine wants those privies cleaned out by the end of the the afternoon. Got a that?

[JennyHallu]

I think that Marenil will suggest that Eodwine's famed generosity is bad for business. I am thinking he might suggest that Eodwine institute a use-fee for guests who wish more than a pallet in the hall, and a meal more complex than simple porridge and mead. That could help with his ready-cash, and prevent low-lifes from taking advantage of him (which may have happened quite a bit during the Fair). After all, the hall is a governmental center, not a soup kitchen. Marenil will also suggest that as the permanent household is growing, more permanent and private lodging for those sworn to Eodwine may be in order.

Which reminds me: If you have not selected and been assigned a room, please PM me with your choice so I can update that. See the Eorling Mead Hall map (linked to in the first post of this thread). If you chose one and I never updated the map, PM me with a scolding and a reminder.

Oh, and I updated the job descriptions I developed above...LMP, did you see those?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

I think that Marenil will suggest that Eodwine's famed generosity is bad for business. I am thinking he might suggest that Eodwine institute a use-fee for guests who wish more than a pallet in the hall, and a meal more complex than simple porridge and mead. That could help with his ready-cash, and prevent low-lifes from taking advantage of him (which may have happened quite a bit during the Fair). After all, the hall is a governmental center, not a soup kitchen. Marenil will also suggest that as the permanent household is growing, more permanent and private lodging for those sworn to Eodwine may be in order.

This is one thing on which Eodwine is not likely to budge. He's got it in his head that this is going to be a true northern mead hall where guests are treated with magnanimity (completely different definition of hospitality there), and that householders are bound by loyalty rather than pay. Bring it on!

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Eodwine will be against adding a new wing on two grounds: 1. expense (he doesn't have much cashflow); 2. He thinks that the open hall is good enough for overflow guests. This is what he'll say when asked. If you want your characters to argue the point with Eodwine, by all means go for it.

Does that include the previously approved fire-break corridor to the kitchen? Garstan won't press for its construction if Eodwine has reconsidered, since he realizes that approval was given somewhat hurriedly in the midst of watching Leof's victory at the races (as I recall)...

Edit coming soon for my post. In fact, I'm doing it now!

[Laiudanama]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Trystan (general labor):

Does what he's told

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

And Trystan, Eodwine wants those privies cleaned out by the end of the the afternoon. Got a that?

Not sure I deserved all that...

Middle Earth karma, no doubt: if so, cleaning out the toilets is actually a fairly light punishment for Trystan's sins...*trails off into ominous silence* Mysterious, non? *shrugs* Nyeh, give me my small pleasures where I can find them

Well, with all that hard work, Trystan's mind may have time to wander - I spy a revelatory kind of a post a-coming, cap'n...

[Celuien]

Post edited, as promised.

Oh, and Nogrod, I'll second lmp:

Let the conflict ensue!

Though Garstan, like his author, is somewhat conflict averse, so don't expect him to particularly up for a fight.

[Nogrod]

Celuien:
I've posted now and given Stigend a chance to explain his thoughts. I hope Garstan would defend his idea about the fire-thing too as I think it a good idea myself (just how to put all this together...?). Even though it's something the poor folk could not afford and as a stone-crafter Garstan could be more knowledgeable of those things than Stigend...

lmp:
I hope Eodwine turned out okay enough. I made that part in somewhat in a hurry, but will correct everything you want me to, surely.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Celuien

Does that include the previously approved fire-break corridor to the kitchen? Garstan won't press for its construction if Eodwine has reconsidered, since he realizes that approval was given somewhat hurriedly in the midst of watching Leof's victory at the races (as I recall)...

Still trying to catch up and so far failing miserably; at this stage I'm only this far in the discussions and haven't even had a chance to do more than scan the posts from 2 days ago!

Anyway, I expect that Stigend's arguments against the away-from-the-hall kitchen will bring the fire-break corridor into reconsideration. Maybe it already has? I'll find out some time in the next 48 hours, I hope.

I sincerely hope, Lai, that you take all the fun-poking in this discussion thread, as well as what happens to your character on the rpg thread, as all in fun. I really enjoy your writing. If at any point you stop enjoying the experience, please PM me and let me know what the problem is and I'll do my best to correct it for you.

Regarding kitchens: while in England I toured Hampton Court, with its circa 1500 to 1700 kitchens, a very complicated system already then, with many different rooms designed for specific tasks such as fowl cleaning, butchering, prepping before cooking, actual cooking, then garnishing: each step had a different room. ... and that was necessary for a place as large as Hampton Court, which the Eorling Mead Hall isn't. However, I have had a first-hand glimpse at a pre-industrial kitchen, which was high-vaulted, all stone, and had an oven that was a recessed affair working pretty much as a glorified fire-hearth; the smoke would travel up the slanted roof out a hole at the top of the vault. I hope that explains it. Perhaps there's a website showing the kitchens of Hampton Court that would be worth a look. That said, I think Nogrod's quote regarding medieval kitchens is the better way to go.

Nogrod, "no additional expenses" per se. The king has given the Eorl that most precious 'medieval' commodity, land. I haven't generated any specifics as to how much, but it's all in and around Edoras. Most of it is farmed, as the land around Edoras is surely more likely to be occupied than farther abroad. Thus Eodwine's chief source of income is Rent (fees), as he has no land that he can directly farm. The secondary income source is Fines. So if I really need to, I could write into the RPG a rash of criminal activity. (hahahaha!)

Okay, that brings me even to 7:48 A.M. today (still on that post); gotta go back to work now....

[JennyHallu]

Can't wait for you to catch up, LMP, this is FUN!

EDIT: and I'm workign on the income problem.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Can't wait for you to catch up, LMP, this is FUN!

I agree with Jenny wholeheartedly! Never kind of knew how fun is it to try and solve this kind of problems together as groundwork for an RPG! Basically if you are just planning a live RPG you just decide on something on your own and that's not half as much fun than this...

I liked Jenny's ideas about the domestic animals. In fact I had thought it as a fact that there were animals at the Hall, but if not, then we surely should have some. Two cows, a dozen hens and a boss for them, a few pigs, maybe a small herd of sheep...

And a small kitchen garden would be a good idea producing at least herbs...

lmp: If Eodwine has land, does he have land with wood? That I think is a crucial question to most of the possible building projects. If Eodwine has wood, building is basically free of extra expenses, if not, there might be limitations to what could be built, at least in the near future.

PS. I like Celuien's idea of having also an oven - so both an open fire and an oven...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

As for a residential wing, we're all thinking too much in modern terms. A Mead Hall was a place in which people just parked themselves in the main Hall as they could find room. Eodwine will be against adding a new wing on two grounds: 1. expense (he doesn't have much cashflow)

I think here might be bolded one more remnant of modern thinking...

1) A lord, if he is having people to live with him as workers, will have fixed expences over them no matter what they do - or whether they do nothing. It's not like today when hiring a carpenter or a stoneworker costs you a small fortune.
2) A lord straight under the supervision of the king would have quite nice opportunities to any resources. Even a layman might be able to go and hack stone from somewhere or possibly even fell wood. Every square-inch of the world was not owned by some individual or other back then. And surely if some lands were assigned to the king, he would surely look benevolently towards a small request by his Eorl...
3) In a Mead Hall like this there seems to be ample workforce and equipment to do all those things on their own, so no need to hire or pay for any outsiders. Eodwine could just say: now you three work the next days getting us some stone from place X?

It's completely another thing then, that at least Stigend would require baulks (or building timber) that have been peeled and dried at least three years beforehand so that they would not "live" any more and thence warp or twist as they will be made part of a building... But surely the king at least would come to back Eodwine on that? He could give some from his stock of dried baulks and just require the matching amount of fresh ones to be given back to him (which Stigend with some help from the others could then produce). Or something...

But I believe that much could be done with no additional expenses in that era's economy.