Eorling Mead Hall Planning/Discussion Thread

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Fea, luv...could you send Modtryth to Marenil's room to discuss how they'll handle the accounts? He's working on taking the reins of the stewardship. LMP, I'd also like some word from you on just what, exactly, Marenil is responsible for. I would have thought the Steward would be handling hiring, honestly, at least for artisan labor and tasks involving access to the coffers. And I foresee some clashing between Marenil's experience and Saeri's earnestness...Saeri's new to the job, and Marenil hasn't had to deal with female authority higher than a housekeeper for 15 years. He took on a lot of the roles of Farlen's Lady...

It would be great to see a list of Saeryn's, Marenil's, and Thornden's duties, as well, perhaps, as those duties Eodwine prefers to make himself.
And as steward, shouldn't Marenil be attending the meeting between the Lord and Lady and the contractors?

I haven't time to answer this right now, busy busy busy! Except for this: Yes, Marenil should be part of the meeting too. Eodwine will be apologizing to him for his failure to think of it. What I'd like is if Marenil could make these very suggestions in the RP that you're making here. What do you think? It could be interesting.

Nogrod, please post up. I won't have time to introduce the thing. Perhaps you could just put suitable words in Eodwine's mouth?

As for a residential wing, we're all thinking too much in modern terms. A Mead Hall was a place in which people just parked themselves in the main Hall as they could find room. Eodwine will be against adding a new wing on two grounds: 1. expense (he doesn't have much cashflow); 2. He thinks that the open hall is good enough for overflow guests. This is what he'll say when asked. If you want your characters to argue the point with Eodwine, by all means go for it.

Let the conflict ensue!

And Trystan, Eodwine wants those privies cleaned out by the end of the the afternoon. Got a that?

[JennyHallu]

I think that Marenil will suggest that Eodwine's famed generosity is bad for business. I am thinking he might suggest that Eodwine institute a use-fee for guests who wish more than a pallet in the hall, and a meal more complex than simple porridge and mead. That could help with his ready-cash, and prevent low-lifes from taking advantage of him (which may have happened quite a bit during the Fair). After all, the hall is a governmental center, not a soup kitchen. Marenil will also suggest that as the permanent household is growing, more permanent and private lodging for those sworn to Eodwine may be in order.

Which reminds me: If you have not selected and been assigned a room, please PM me with your choice so I can update that. See the Eorling Mead Hall map (linked to in the first post of this thread). If you chose one and I never updated the map, PM me with a scolding and a reminder.

Oh, and I updated the job descriptions I developed above...LMP, did you see those?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

I think that Marenil will suggest that Eodwine's famed generosity is bad for business. I am thinking he might suggest that Eodwine institute a use-fee for guests who wish more than a pallet in the hall, and a meal more complex than simple porridge and mead. That could help with his ready-cash, and prevent low-lifes from taking advantage of him (which may have happened quite a bit during the Fair). After all, the hall is a governmental center, not a soup kitchen. Marenil will also suggest that as the permanent household is growing, more permanent and private lodging for those sworn to Eodwine may be in order.

This is one thing on which Eodwine is not likely to budge. He's got it in his head that this is going to be a true northern mead hall where guests are treated with magnanimity (completely different definition of hospitality there), and that householders are bound by loyalty rather than pay. Bring it on!

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Eodwine will be against adding a new wing on two grounds: 1. expense (he doesn't have much cashflow); 2. He thinks that the open hall is good enough for overflow guests. This is what he'll say when asked. If you want your characters to argue the point with Eodwine, by all means go for it.

Does that include the previously approved fire-break corridor to the kitchen? Garstan won't press for its construction if Eodwine has reconsidered, since he realizes that approval was given somewhat hurriedly in the midst of watching Leof's victory at the races (as I recall)...

Edit coming soon for my post. In fact, I'm doing it now!

[Laiudanama]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Trystan (general labor):

Does what he's told

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

And Trystan, Eodwine wants those privies cleaned out by the end of the the afternoon. Got a that?

Not sure I deserved all that...

Middle Earth karma, no doubt: if so, cleaning out the toilets is actually a fairly light punishment for Trystan's sins...*trails off into ominous silence* Mysterious, non? *shrugs* Nyeh, give me my small pleasures where I can find them

Well, with all that hard work, Trystan's mind may have time to wander - I spy a revelatory kind of a post a-coming, cap'n...

[Celuien]

Post edited, as promised.

Oh, and Nogrod, I'll second lmp:

Let the conflict ensue!

Though Garstan, like his author, is somewhat conflict averse, so don't expect him to particularly up for a fight.

[Nogrod]

Celuien:
I've posted now and given Stigend a chance to explain his thoughts. I hope Garstan would defend his idea about the fire-thing too as I think it a good idea myself (just how to put all this together...?). Even though it's something the poor folk could not afford and as a stone-crafter Garstan could be more knowledgeable of those things than Stigend...

lmp:
I hope Eodwine turned out okay enough. I made that part in somewhat in a hurry, but will correct everything you want me to, surely.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Celuien:
I've posted now and given Stigend a chance to explain his thoughts. I hope Garstan would defend his idea about the fire-thing too as I think it a good idea myself (just how to put all this together...?). Even though it's something the poor folk could not afford and as a stone-crafter Garstan could be more knowledgeable of those things than Stigend...

I'm sure he'll feel like at least explaining it to Stigend. Whether the fire-thing stays or not, though, will be up for debate.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Celuien

I'm sure he'll feel like at least explaining it to Stigend. Whether the fire-thing stays or not, though, will be up for debate.

Has anyone a clue, whether the kind of metal sheet -things that they put between the ovens and the walls just to prevent fires were already in use those times? In any given actual or fictional world we are trying to construct here...

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Celuien

Does that include the previously approved fire-break corridor to the kitchen? Garstan won't press for its construction if Eodwine has reconsidered, since he realizes that approval was given somewhat hurriedly in the midst of watching Leof's victory at the races (as I recall)...

Still trying to catch up and so far failing miserably; at this stage I'm only this far in the discussions and haven't even had a chance to do more than scan the posts from 2 days ago!

Anyway, I expect that Stigend's arguments against the away-from-the-hall kitchen will bring the fire-break corridor into reconsideration. Maybe it already has? I'll find out some time in the next 48 hours, I hope.

I sincerely hope, Lai, that you take all the fun-poking in this discussion thread, as well as what happens to your character on the rpg thread, as all in fun. I really enjoy your writing. If at any point you stop enjoying the experience, please PM me and let me know what the problem is and I'll do my best to correct it for you.

Regarding kitchens: while in England I toured Hampton Court, with its circa 1500 to 1700 kitchens, a very complicated system already then, with many different rooms designed for specific tasks such as fowl cleaning, butchering, prepping before cooking, actual cooking, then garnishing: each step had a different room. ... and that was necessary for a place as large as Hampton Court, which the Eorling Mead Hall isn't. However, I have had a first-hand glimpse at a pre-industrial kitchen, which was high-vaulted, all stone, and had an oven that was a recessed affair working pretty much as a glorified fire-hearth; the smoke would travel up the slanted roof out a hole at the top of the vault. I hope that explains it. Perhaps there's a website showing the kitchens of Hampton Court that would be worth a look. That said, I think Nogrod's quote regarding medieval kitchens is the better way to go.

Nogrod, "no additional expenses" per se. The king has given the Eorl that most precious 'medieval' commodity, land. I haven't generated any specifics as to how much, but it's all in and around Edoras. Most of it is farmed, as the land around Edoras is surely more likely to be occupied than farther abroad. Thus Eodwine's chief source of income is Rent (fees), as he has no land that he can directly farm. The secondary income source is Fines. So if I really need to, I could write into the RPG a rash of criminal activity. (hahahaha!)

Okay, that brings me even to 7:48 A.M. today (still on that post); gotta go back to work now....

[JennyHallu]

Can't wait for you to catch up, LMP, this is FUN!

EDIT: and I'm workign on the income problem.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Can't wait for you to catch up, LMP, this is FUN!

I agree with Jenny wholeheartedly! Never kind of knew how fun is it to try and solve this kind of problems together as groundwork for an RPG! Basically if you are just planning a live RPG you just decide on something on your own and that's not half as much fun than this...

I liked Jenny's ideas about the domestic animals. In fact I had thought it as a fact that there were animals at the Hall, but if not, then we surely should have some. Two cows, a dozen hens and a boss for them, a few pigs, maybe a small herd of sheep...

And a small kitchen garden would be a good idea producing at least herbs...

lmp: If Eodwine has land, does he have land with wood? That I think is a crucial question to most of the possible building projects. If Eodwine has wood, building is basically free of extra expenses, if not, there might be limitations to what could be built, at least in the near future.

PS. I like Celuien's idea of having also an oven - so both an open fire and an oven...

[Firefoot]

The way I understand Rohan, there's not really much wood to be found there... maybe if you get up into the White Mountains? But I see it as mostly rolling plains - farmland, pastureland, etc.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Firefoot

The way I understand Rohan, there's not really much wood to be found there... maybe if you get up into the White Mountains? But I see it as mostly rolling plains - farmland, pastureland, etc.

In general... that was my first thought too...

But, seeing as I live on the edge of the Great Plains, I think I can confidantly say that while most of the lands NORTH of Edoras wouldn't be forested (just groves along the streams and the like), to the SOUTH of Edoras, there would likely be a forested area between the mountains and the plains. On the assumption that the White Mountains are anything like the Rockies (with which I am well familiar) there should be a good, thick forest (coniferous?) between the edge of the plain and the bare heights.

Mind you, though, the Rohirrim have been dwelling in the dales of the White Mountains for five hundred years, and the Gondorrim and proto-Dunlendings before them. But the foothills of the mountains, it seems to me, would likely be more than a little forested.

Also, as Edoras is located in the dales of the White Mountains, it is highly possible that Eodwine, who has shares in the farmlands about the city (which would most likely be towards the north), would also have portions of the forested areas to the south.

At least, that's MY take on the matter.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

NAME: Merdha

AGE: 52

RACE: Rohirric

GENDER: female

WEAPONS: broom and dustpan, Waggling Finger of Disappointment

APPEARANCE: around 5'8", golden hair that's going silver; stoutly built. An averagely pretty Rohirric lass back in the day, but the years and the child-bearing have caught up with her. She is huggably round with a lap that's simply made for small children to sit in. Clothed practically in skirt, blouse, apron. Hair braided singly and twisted into a knot at the base of her neck each day.

PERSONALITY/STRENGTHS/WEAKNESSES: Merdha is the maternal sort and does not hesitate to lecture those of any station if she thinks that they haven't eaten enough or done their chores. She is especially good with children, but she is well liked by nearly all adults, too. Her presence is relaxing, even when she is cocking her head an looking at you in such a way as to ask "Now why haven't your chores been finished yet? Hm? Hop to it!" She puts up with no nonsense and has a weakness for both a good story (clever excuses have been known, if they are original and funny enough, to get their giver out of work) and a good slice of pie.

HISTORY: Merdha grew up in a traditional Rohirric household with traditional Rohirric values. She worked as a maid in her youth to bring extra money to her parents and married a horseherder. She happily raised the four of her seven children that made it out of the cradle and cared for other children as well until they were all old enough to tend for themselves. When her children grew into adolescence and adulthood and began to care for themselves, Merdha fell into a job as a maid and all around housekeeper for an elderly couple to bring in extra money to her household and to take up the time that her husband spent away from home. The couple have recently passed away and Merdha is looking for a new place of employment in which to do such things as light cleaning, bed making, and whatever else an aging grandmotherly sort can do that won't break her back.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

As for a residential wing, we're all thinking too much in modern terms. A Mead Hall was a place in which people just parked themselves in the main Hall as they could find room. Eodwine will be against adding a new wing on two grounds: 1. expense (he doesn't have much cashflow)

I think here might be bolded one more remnant of modern thinking...

1) A lord, if he is having people to live with him as workers, will have fixed expences over them no matter what they do - or whether they do nothing. It's not like today when hiring a carpenter or a stoneworker costs you a small fortune.
2) A lord straight under the supervision of the king would have quite nice opportunities to any resources. Even a layman might be able to go and hack stone from somewhere or possibly even fell wood. Every square-inch of the world was not owned by some individual or other back then. And surely if some lands were assigned to the king, he would surely look benevolently towards a small request by his Eorl...
3) In a Mead Hall like this there seems to be ample workforce and equipment to do all those things on their own, so no need to hire or pay for any outsiders. Eodwine could just say: now you three work the next days getting us some stone from place X?

It's completely another thing then, that at least Stigend would require baulks (or building timber) that have been peeled and dried at least three years beforehand so that they would not "live" any more and thence warp or twist as they will be made part of a building... But surely the king at least would come to back Eodwine on that? He could give some from his stock of dried baulks and just require the matching amount of fresh ones to be given back to him (which Stigend with some help from the others could then produce). Or something...

But I believe that much could be done with no additional expenses in that era's economy.