Middle-earth Mysteries

[Saurreg]

I have always had an impression that Sauron was innately more powerful than Saruman hence his rise to prominence. It is thus in my opinion also that Saruman would never be as powerful as Sauron no matter the time nor the resources.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I have always had an impression that Sauron was innately more powerful than Saruman hence his rise to prominence.

Not necessarily, I think. Remember, Sauron was Morgoth's lackey/
lieutenant/whatever, while Saruman was in Aman as, presumably,
a significant maia- since he seems to have been considered the
head of the istari (granted, mostly a ceremonial title). And once he
decided to go agaionst the prohibition put on the istari of
imposing their will on others he may well have been Sauron's equal
or superior (especially a Sauron without the Ring).

As for a Middle-earth mystery---what was the nature of the
"magic" the woodelves used on the dwarves in The Hobbit
that seems to have paralyzed them and made them unconscious
(at least Thorin).

[Saurreg]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Not necessarily, I think. Remember, Sauron was Morgoth's lackey/lieutenant/whatever, while Saruman was in Aman as, presumably,a significant maia- since he seems to have been considered the
head of the istari (granted, mostly a ceremonial title). And once he
decided to go agaionst the prohibition put on the istari of
imposing their will on others he may well have been Sauron's equal
or superior (especially a Sauron without the Ring).

Hello Tour In Gondolin, nice to meet you again.

As I have stated, it is only my opinion that Sauron is mightier than Saruman and this is one passage from which that opinion was formed:

"And Curunír, 'Lâr, Saruman the White, fell from his high errand, and becoming proud and impatient and enamoured of power sought to have his own will by force, and to oust Sauron; but he was ensnared by that dark spirit, mightier than he"
-From The Istari, Unfinished Tales

The dark spirit in question may refer literally to Sauron himself or perhaps figuratively the darkness that took hold of Saruman's heart. I chose to interprete it literally here.

It is true that Sauron was orignally a mäiar of Aulë who turned lieutenant of Morgoth. But Morgoth was very great in his powers and so I think that being Morgoth's direct subordinate was not proof of the lack of power but rather a statement of the disparity of power between the lord and vassal. And Sauron as we have read was very powerful himself.

Saruman was likewise a servant of higher powers. He was only considered the greatest of the five Mäiars that became the Istari, but that does not translate into comparison of his innard powers to the other supernatural beings such as Sauron, Melian or Arien.

[ninja91]

I agree with Saurreg. Saruman is one of the Maiar which is (as far as I know) not as powerful as the Valar, which is what Sauron was.

[narfforc]

Sorry, but Sauron was not one of the Valar, he was a Maia, or are you saying that Sauron was as powerful as a Vala, in which case I think you are also wrong.

[alatar]

Who is it that declares Saruman greatest of the Five Istari? Gandalf? By what measure does he know this? Was he, in this one case, being humble? Regardless, Gandalf the White states, I think, that he is about the most dangerous being in Middle Earth except if one were brought before the Nine-fingered one. If Gandalf says that he is less that Sauron, and as the White is greater than Saruman, then Saruman is lesser than Sauron.

Not that Saruman lacked spunk .