Fate of the Nazgul?

[Gil-Galad]

what i meant by them having to remain in limbo, would be that the nazgul's spirits are to far past redemption and must endure the agony of being in Limbo, being alone, ignored, and unthought of, and much watch everything that happens and can't do anything about it.


so basically they were to evil to be given a final rest and their spirits must wander the earth for eternity. almost like common day ghosts if you will.

oh and technically they weren't dead, their lifespan just basically went beyond normal due to Saurons malice, the Nazgul's human bodies corroded away but their Spirits, that were entwined with Sauron, remain, so if we are speaking teachnically, the Nazgul aren't dead because they never died, Their Souls are still there to take the place.

[radagastly]

so basically they were to evil to be given a final rest and their spirits must wander the earth for eternity.

I don't agree. They were, after all, men. No one in Arda, not even the Valar, can withhold the Gift of Iluvatar. They would go to Mandos, and then beyond to the unknown. They might resist the call, as they'd been doing for thousands of years, but with the power of the rings gone, would their spirits have the strength to remain? They had little will of their own for most of their time in Arda, slaves to their rings and, through the One Ring, slaves to Sauron. That power was now gone. If they were Ainur like Sauron and Saruman tied to the world as long as it endured, they might be able to remain in Middle Earth rather than journey across the sea to Valinor, but their essence was simply human, and weary beyond measure. Bilbo was weary after holding the One Ring for sixty-one years, thin and stretched like butter scraped over too much bread. (I love that line, by the way.) Imagine how you would feel with a less powerful ring to sustain you, and yet endure for thousands of years, rather than only sixty-one?

[Gil-Galad]

maybe i didn't explain before, Nazgul were evil, its torture to remain in limbo, so as a punishment to the Nazgul, Mandos forced them to remain in limbo.


so its more of a punishment, like when Sauron's shadow headed toward valinor but got blown away by a eastward wind.

[radagastly]

maybe i didn't explain before, Nazgul were evil, its torture to remain in limbo, so as a punishment to the Nazgul, Mandos forced them to remain in limbo.

I still don't agree. I understand the idea of punishment for evil men, but their souls are still those of men. Mandos has neither the power nor the authority to hold them within the circles of the world when it is time for them to depart. Only Eru knows what reward or punishment may await them once they leave.

[Gil-Galad]

*sigh*

they were men, the bodies of the men they use to be have long corroded away and their evil souls remain, so i can put up the argument that they are no longer men, they are twisted souls that use to be men. so with that the Valar can deny them and make them stay in limbo

oh and what about the Numenor, they were given longer life by the Valar, so technically their date of deathes were prolonged by the Valar.

[radagastly]

True, their bodies were men, but so were their souls. Evil men, to be sure, but men none-the-less. I suspect this is something we will never agree on.

oh and what about the Numenor, they were given longer life by the Valar, so technically their date of deathes were prolonged by the Valar.

The date was prolonged, not denied. Like Aragorn eventually did, they chose the time of their dying (unless they were killed by some other means, in battle or from illness.) The date of their death was prolonged by themselves, not the Valar, if it was prolonged at all.

[Gil-Galad]

Well yeah, but they didn't choose their death, Aragorn wasn't like "i think i'll die when i'm 100 something", what i am basically trying to say is that Sauron corrupted the souls of the Nazgul, thus they lost their men-soulness and became shadows.

Sauron changed them bascially, turning them from men into darker things.