Arcane Topic Warning: Part the Third

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Also true that each individual had the potential for evil, I’m just curious about how this developed on a societal level.

This is beginning to remind me of the Elven government/culture thread. As is typical in Tolkien's Legendarium, Patriarchal hereditary leadership is the modus operandum for societal dynamics. This is probably more so in Dwarven culture. As goes Thorin, so go the others, even Balin. Not one of the Dwarves in Erebor gain-said their leader. In the part of The Hobbit I am speaking of, Tolkien was writing pretty seriously; no more of the pratfalls and silliness with Trolls and Spiders ... so this I think can be construed as typical societal dynamic for Dwarves.

[Boromir88]

so this I think can be construed as typical societal dynamic for Dwarves.~lmp

And I think it fits along with why the Dwarves united against the Orcs in the war. Despite what battles, arguments, disagreements the dwarves had with eachother...Thror was gruesomely killed and this enraged all the dwarves into sending aid and helping eachother.

[Saurreg]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

This is beginning to remind me of the Elven government/culture thread. As is typical in Tolkien's Legendarium, Patriarchal hereditary leadership is the modus operandum for societal dynamics. This is probably more so in Dwarven culture. As goes Thorin, so go the others, even Balin. Not one of the Dwarves in Erebor gain-said their leader. In the part of The Hobbit I am speaking of, Tolkien was writing pretty seriously; no more of the pratfalls and silliness with Trolls and Spiders ... so this I think can be construed as typical societal dynamic for Dwarves.

As a citizen from a quasi-patriachal state, I can tell you that concerns or rather, fears of the patriarch going rogue is of the uptmost concerns of both the citizens and government. As such there are measures adopted to prevent absolute power from falling totally into the hands of one man. Hence Singapore has two deputy Prime Ministers and three Ministers for Defence.

That stated I wonder if the dwarven houses had such fail safe mechanisms in place. What would happen if a leader of a great house turned rogue and perhaps "evil" as we have more or less defined in this thread? Could the other dwarves of the same house have stopped this leader from committing undersirable acts? Or would a possible culture of respect to elders, strict social hierarchy, apolitical lifestyles and strong centralized rule dissuade such a self-righting course?

Magna Carta anyone?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Saurreg

That stated I wonder if the dwarven houses had such fail safe mechanisms in place. What would happen if a leader of a great house turned rogue and perhaps "evil" as we have more or less defined in this thread? Could the other dwarves of the same house have stopped this leader from committing undersirable acts? Or would a possible culture of respect to elders, strict social hierarchy, apolitical lifestyles and strong centralized rule dissuade such a self-righting course?

Magna Carta anyone?

Seems unlikely... Dwarves were more of a patriachal people than either Men or Elves. The vengeance of the Dwarves for Thrór is unmatched in Arda- even the vengeance of the Noldor for Finwë doesn't quite compare, in that it is only the Noldor, and not all the Eldar, who follow Fëanor into exile and revenge. With the Dwarves, Thráin has Dwarves of many (all?) houses at his back. The Elven equivalent would have required the Vanyar and the Teleri to have marched with the Noldor.

Furthermore, one can see from The Hobbit that Thorin exercised absolute authority over the Longbeards. We not only see this in the actions of Balin and the rest of the Unlucky Thirteen, but in the actions of Dáin and the Dwarves of the Iron Hills. Dáin was a pretty independent lord, as things go. He'd been lording it over the Iron Hills Dwarves since the Battle of Azanulbizar, and without his troops Thorin was in a pickle and no mistake- but despite being a clearly more levelheaded Dwarf (as we see from his post-Thorin's death actions), and a senior, powerful lord in his own right, he does not waver a bit from obeying Thorin.

So checks and balances? Seems unlikely.

[Saurondil]

Originally Posted by Saurreg

As a citizen from a quasi-patriachal state, I can tell you that concerns or rather, fears of the patriarch going rogue is of the uptmost concerns of both the citizens and government. As such there are measures adopted to prevent absolute power from falling totally into the hands of one man. Hence Singapore has two deputy Prime Ministers and three Ministers for Defence.

That stated I wonder if the dwarven houses had such fail safe mechanisms in place. What would happen if a leader of a great house turned rogue and perhaps "evil" as we have more or less defined in this thread? Could the other dwarves of the same house have stopped this leader from committing undersirable acts? Or would a possible culture of respect to elders, strict social hierarchy, apolitical lifestyles and strong centralized rule dissuade such a self-righting course?

Magna Carta anyone?

## Perhaps the constitution of Numenor, so far as it is recoverable, would be enough to ensure that kind of culture. It seems to depend on custom, much more than on statute. In an ideal state, there would be no law - it would not be needed;custom - as among the Hobbits, who were influenced by the Dunedain - would be enough.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I agree that Dwarves would have been the primary source of outside commerce for the Shire in the time of the War of the Ring. However, there's a variable in Saruman. He had been covertly buying tobacco for some time leading up to the War, and it is said that the "money" he paid for the merchandise was corrupting the hobbits with whom he was doing business. That would seem to be a fair amount of coinage, and I wonder what sort of currency he would have used.

## Might the invention of money be another of Saruman's bad deeds (and a form of likeness to Sauron, by trying to dominate others) ? It would require technology, too - and Tolkien is not overly keen on technology. Corrupting the Sackville-Bagginses (& other Hobbits ?) with cash would fit TLOTR well enough. Barter OTOH, with perishable goods, would allow a comparatively trouble-free economy, one closer to nature. Cash might count as a mathom, to put in the mathom house at Michel Delving. (TLOTR as anti-capitalist fable ? Maybe not.) This would indicate a contrast between Hobbits and dwarves - the latter are inclined to possessiveness, the former are not (unless tempted by the Ring or Saruman).

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Saurondil

## Might the invention of money be another of Saruman's bad deeds (and a form of likeness to Sauron, by trying to dominate others) ? It would require technology, too - and Tolkien is not overly keen on technology. Corrupting the Sackville-Bagginses (& other Hobbits ?) with cash would fit TLOTR well enough.

I don't think Saruman introduced currency to the Shire.
For one thing, Gandalf kept an eye on the place, and such a societal change would surely have been noted by him. Saruman was buying pipe-weed on the sly, but that was more easily accomplished covertly.

Also, there is a reference in The Hobbit that leads me to believe hobbits were used to currency.

Bungo, that was Bilbo's father, built the most luxurious hobbit-hole for her (and partly with her money) that was to be found either under The Hill or over The Hill or across The Water, and there they remained to the end of their days.

An Unexpected party

Originally Posted by Saurondil

Barter OTOH, with perishable goods, would allow a comparatively trouble-free economy, one closer to nature. Cash might count as a mathom, to put in the mathom house at Michel Delving. (TLOTR as anti-capitalist fable ? Maybe not.) This would indicate a contrast between Hobbits and dwarves - the latter are inclined to possessiveness, the former are not (unless tempted by the Ring or Saruman).

I think the Dwarves likely did trade with the Shire mostly by barter. I can see them trading metal items for food.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Also, there is a reference in The Hobbit that leads me to believe hobbits were used to currency.

There are several, in fact:

"Bilbo could never remember how he found himself outside, without a hat, a walking-stick or any money, or anything that he usually took when he went out" (p. 29)

"I have come without my hat, and I have left my pocket-handkerchief behind, and I haven't any money." (p. 30)

In regards to trade between Hobbits and Dwarves, I wonder if the Dwarves were more buyers or sellers. It seems to me that the Hobbits were accomplished enough with the simple machinery they used and the construction of their own dwellings; and that the primary produce of value to the Dwarves would have been food, pipe-weed and the like. One can perhaps imagine them selling to the Men of Dale in the East and buying from the Hobbits in the West. I'm no economist though so I personally can't speculate too much.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

In regards to trade between Hobbits and Dwarves, I wonder if the Dwarves were more buyers or sellers. It seems to me that the Hobbits were accomplished enough with the simple machinery they used and the construction of their own dwellings; and that the primary produce of value to the Dwarves would have been food, pipe-weed and the like. One can perhaps imagine them selling to the Men of Dale in the East and buying from the Hobbits in the West. I'm no economist though so I personally can't speculate too much.

Maybe the Dwarves supplied the Shire with everyday metal items like candlesticks, cutlery, and farm tools. Sure, hobbits probably could have fashioned things like that themselves. However, anything metal made by Dwarves was likely of superior quality, and their products could have been preferred, by the richer families especially , as status symbols.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Maybe the Dwarves supplied the Shire with everyday metal items like candlesticks, cutlery, and farm tools. Sure, hobbits probably could have fashioned things like that themselves. However, anything metal made by Dwarves was likely of superior quality, and their products could have been preferred, by the richer families especially , as status symbols.

'The hobbit that I have in mind has ornaments of gold, and eats with silver tools, and drinks out of shapely crystal.'

'Ah! I see your drift at last,' said Balin. 'He's a thief, then? That is why you recommended him?'

At that I fear I lost my temper and my caution. This Dwarvish conceit that no one can have or make anything 'of value' save themselves, and that all fine things in other hands must have been got, if not stolen, from the Dwarves at some time, was more than I could stand at that moment.

Earlier Thorin had sneered that "those villagers" "drink out of clay, and they cannot tell a gem from a glass bead." All of which suggests that Thorin's community, at least, had no experience of selling fine articles of craft to hobbits.