King of the Dead vs Witch King

[Boromir88]

I would like to hear of more evidence to prove that the King of the Dead was as you say just a scare tactic figure, & not capable of causing harm to the WK, who himself is neither living nor dead.~Mansun

Sure thing,

To be honest, it is not confirmed that the dead army was powerless. Gimil simply said that he didn't know if their blades would do harm anymore, but they inspired enough fear that they didn't need them.~1,000 Reader

It can be confirmed quite easily, not even looking at Gimli's words, because that would be 'hearsay.'

Let's look at the curse of Isildur:

"Though shalt be the last king. And if the West prove mightier than thy Black Master, this curse I lay upon thee and thy folk: to rest never until your oath is fulfilled. For this war will last through the years uncounted, and you shall be summoned once again ere the end."~The Passing of the Grey Company

This curse was laid upon their spirits, their 'spirits' will never rest. And how do we know this? Because they are literally dead. In Letter 192, Tolkien says that in his fight with the Balrog 'Gandalf really died,' because all death is in Tolkien is the seperation of the spirit (or fea) from the body (hroa). So, their physical bodies were dead, decipated, non existant, it was their spirits that weren't able to rest until their oath was fulfilled.

And being the dead, spirits, shadows, shades, whatever you want to call them, they have no physical body. And having no physical body, means you can't physically effect or harm anyone, because this means they are intangible. As the Sauron quote that is provided in my first post shows. Also, to note that after Merry and Eowyn kill the Witch-King:

'Witch King had been reduced to impotence'~Letter 246

After being killed he was reduced to impotence, meaning his body was dead and having no physical body, simply being a spirit, he would be 'impotent,' he couldn't harm anyone.

The whole point that I'm trying to make is being dead, a spirit, a shadow...whatever, means that you have no physical body, because in Tolkien death is the seperation of the spirit from the body. And having no physical body means you can't harm anything, or anyone physically. Eventhough if you could still visibly, and barely see the Dead Army, they were still spirits with no physical body.

The Witch-King is different from the Dead Army, he first off is invisible, without his black cloak, you wouldn't see him. But opposite of the King of the Dead, he still had a physical body, you just couldn't see it. He was still tangible, and could still physically harm anyone on Middle-earth, because he had a body. And we know he had a body, or he wouldn't have been killed on Pelennor fields, he wouldn't have been stabbed in the back of the knee, and he wouldn't have had a sword that was shoved in his face.

So, again in conclusion. The King of the Dead you could barely see his spirit, but he had no body, so he couldn't harm you physically and he himself couldn't be harmed physically. The Witch-King, was invisible (if he didn't have his cloak) but he still had a physical presence, which is why he could be killed. Which means, it would be a draw, because the King of the Dead could not have killed the Witch-King, unable to harm him, and the King of the Dead...well he was already dead with no body, so the Witch-King couldn't defeat him.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

The whole point that I'm trying to make is being dead, a spirit, a shadow...whatever, means that you have no physical body, because in Tolkien death is the seperation of the spirit from the body. And having no physical body means you can't harm anything, or anyone physically. Eventhough if you could still visibly, and barely see the Dead Army, they were still spirits with no physical body.

Dude, if you need a body to do anything, how did the Aniur make Arda? Also, the Dead Army wasn't at the same level the Witch-King and Sauron were when they were shadows. The Dead Army was just under the curse. They were spirits, not crippled spirits. Seeing as how they weren't crippled spirits, a rare case in Arda, it's still unsure if they could do anything or not.

[Boromir88]

When did I say you needed a body to do anything? I just said that you need to have a body to bring any sort of physical harm to something else. Oh and the Ainur were known to make bodies of their own.

Also, the Dead Army wasn't at the same level the Witch-King and Sauron were when they were shadows. The Dead Army was just under the curse. They were spirits, not crippled spirits.

A 'crippled' spirit is your own definition and I have no clue where you came up with it. But, being 'dead' means you're spirit has seperated from your body...the King of the Dead, was physically dead, he was a spirit. And his spirit was cursed to never rest until his oath had been fulfilled. Spirits, as I have shown with 2 different quotes were impotent and could not physically harm anything....the same thing happens to Saruman when he dies.

[luthien-elvenprincess]

And being the dead, spirits, shadows, shades, whatever you want to call them, they have no physical body. And having no physical body, means you can't physically effect or harm anyone, because this means they are intangible.

The whole point that I'm trying to make is being dead, a spirit, a shadow...whatever, means that you have no physical body, because in Tolkien death is the seperation of the spirit from the body. And having no physical body means you can't harm anything, or anyone physically.

So, again in conclusion. The King of the Dead you could barely see his spirit, but he had no body, so he couldn't harm you physically and he himself couldn't be harmed physically.

Boromir88, I understand your assertion that a spirit cannot physically harm another, due to the fact that they have no fleshly body with which to inflict harm; however they did cause physical harm to occur as a result of their ability to produce fear and dread.

During the battle at Pelargir, the Shadow Host caused such a "madness of terror" that the enemy leaped overboard, many drowned. The physical harm that came to them was a direct result from the fear that the Shadow Host induced.

I agree that a battle between the King of the Dead and the Witch King would end in a draw, since the King of the Dead could not be killed, since he was already dead, and the Witch King would hardly be frightened by any of the Shadow Host.

[Boromir88]

Luthien, well put.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

When did I say you needed a body to do anything? I just said that you need to have a body to bring any sort of physical harm to something else.

You pretty much said it right there. To cause physical harm you have to be able to actually interact with physical things. FYI, the Aniur didn't have bodies when they made Arda.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

A 'crippled' spirit is your own definition and I have no clue where you came up with it. But, being 'dead' means you're spirit has seperated from your body...the King of the Dead, was physically dead, he was a spirit. And his spirit was cursed to never rest until his oath had been fulfilled. Spirits, as I have shown with 2 different quotes were impotent and could not physically harm anything....the same thing happens to Saruman when he dies.

Look at Sauron; a horribly crippled spirit when he was finally defeated. The Witch-King was vanquished from the world when he died. The dead army just pretty much died regularly but got to stay in Middle-Earth. Also, the curse wouldn't be lifted until they fought for Gondor. If they were expected to fight, then why were they cursed with something that wouldn't let them fight?

[Boromir88]

You pretty much said it right there. To cause physical harm you have to be able to actually interact with physical things.

But I never said someone needed 'flesh' to be capable of doing anything, as you have asserted. I only said that in order to physically bring harm to someone else, one would have to have a physical body.

Which, I did admit that luthien brought up a good point, in that I obviously did not take into consideration that the Dead Army was able to kill the corsairs with their fear and driving them off the boats to their watery grave (that I would certainly classify as being able to 'physically harm' because with their fear they were able to kill the Corsairs). That's something I wasn't considering...by 'physical harm' I was talking about the fact that the King of the Dead could not have stabbed the Witch-King with a sword...or couldn't have drop kicked him in the face.

FYI, the Aniur didn't have bodies when they made Arda.

...Ya I kind of knew that.

Look at Sauron; a horribly crippled spirit when he was finally defeated. The Witch-King was vanquished from the world when he died. The dead army just pretty much died regularly but got to stay in Middle-Earth.

It doesn't matter how they died is the whole point. All death is, in Tolkien, is the seperation of the spirit from the body. The King of the dead was...dead therefor he couldn't have had a tangible body. And in order to be able to fight and 'brawl' with something that did have a tangible body, you needed to have one yourself.

Also, the curse wouldn't be lifted until they fought for Gondor. If they were expected to fight, then why were they cursed with something that wouldn't let them fight?

They did fight for Gondor, just not in the way of slashing people up or round house kicking them. They were able to fill the Corsairs with madness and have them jump off the boat...after this Aragorn holds their oath fulfilled.

The end of that, I'm sorry, just doesn't make any sense. Isildur was spiteful because of their betrayal, so he cursed them,ther isn't some sort of magical power to keep their bodies intact so they could still fight. They betrayed Gondor, Isildur cursed them until their oath was fulfilled, which they did. After being cursed they hid in their mountains, died, but being cursed their spirits couldn't rest until they fulfilled their oath. Isildur's curse was a show of spite. So, he didn't care whether they were capable of fulfilling their oath or not. He despised them for their betrayal so he laid a curse on them, if they were able to fulfill it good for them, if not too bad shouldn't have betrayed Gondor.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

But I never said someone needed 'flesh' to be capable of doing anything, as you have asserted. I only said that in order to physically bring harm to someone else, one would have to have a physical body.

In other words, flesh to be capable.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

The end of that, I'm sorry, just doesn't make any sense. Isildur was spiteful because of their betrayal, so he cursed them,ther isn't some sort of magical power to keep their bodies intact so they could still fight. They betrayed Gondor, Isildur cursed them until their oath was fulfilled, which they did. After being cursed they hid in their mountains, died, but being cursed their spirits couldn't rest until they fulfilled their oath. Isildur's curse was a show of spite. So, he didn't care whether they were capable of fulfilling their oath or not. He despised them for their betrayal so he laid a curse on them, if they were able to fulfill it good for them, if not too bad shouldn't have betrayed Gondor.

Isildur may have been angry, yes, but he specifically cursed them, not just casted a random spell. A "controlled" curse would likely stay to what was said. Also, standing there and looking scary technically doesn't count as fighting. If the curse was made with specific words, then the curse likely held to those words. It was like a contract.

Overall, the undead army was a special case which we don't have much info on, so all we can do is speculate. Your opinion is equal to mine. If anything, we should be talking about how a man of Numenor pulled a curse out of his rear.

[Boromir88]

In other words, flesh to be capable.

No you said that I claimed to be able to do absolutely anything (which you said was how were the Ainur capable of making Arda without bodies) one must have a body. And I'm saying, I never said this, I only said to be able to punch someone else with a tangible form, you must have a form yourself.

It was like a contract.

Curses are far more spiteful than contracts. They aren't something that are easy to break. It's a form of revenge because someone did injustice to you or someone/something you hold very dear. Curses aren't some nice sweet thing like 'I'm going to curse you because you betrayed me...you aren't going to rest until your oath to fighting for Gondor is going to be fulfilled. I'm going to be soft on you though, and just so you can break this curse I gave you, I will make sure that you are able to fulfill it.'

Curses aren't sweet like that, and they aren't something that can be easily broken. There is nothing 'easy' about a curse, if the Dead Army was incapable of breaking it that's their own problem and they will have to live with it. Take a look at the curse placed upon the sons of Feanor, and the curse Morgoth put on Hurin and his house.

I don't see how hard it is to recognize that being dead means you have no body, and there is no special little sweetness curse Isildur gave them to make sure their bodies stayed intact. Because being dead, means you have no physical body.