Saruman for or against Sauron?

[Kuruharan]

If they had not why would Sauron, who knew the nature of the Ring better than any, expend so much effort in trying to retrieve it?

Why does anybody do anything that would make things easier for them or get them more information? My guess would be is that Sauron was not sure what would happen if somebody else attempted to claim the Ring.

This is not at all surprising considering that Sauron himself did not seem to be aware of all the aspects and potentialities of the Ring (see his belief that it had been destroyed...)

Do we believe Tolkien or Gandalf?

Perhaps The Man himself can answer for us in a passage that could illuminate this discussion where he says regarding Treebeard's knowledge of the creation of orcs...

Treebeard is a character in my story not me
-Letter 153

There is clear differentiation here between what Tolkien knows and what his characters know. You say that Gandalf implied that Aragorn was capable of wielding the Ring. Tolkien explicitly denied that Aragorn would have been able to do so successfully and so defeat Sauron. Aragorn, for all his high heritage and nobility of character was not on Sauron's level.

I don't think there is any doubt about which opinion we need to follow in this case.

[Kuruharan]

And, looked at in this light, this doesn't so much weaken the Saruman claim, as make it stronger, since Saruman was also Sauron's native peer.

But Saruman was ultimately weaker in his soul than Gandalf from beginning to end.

I'm afraid there is no traction for this idea from this angle either.

And besides, Denethor was evidently had more strength of spirit than Saruman as he did not turn traitor. This does not speak well of Saruman's strength of will and strength of will would be a critical ingredient (probably the critical ingredient in mastering the Ring).

[davem]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

There is clear differentiation here between what Tolkien knows and what his characters know. You say that Gandalf implied that Aragorn was capable of wielding the Ring. Tolkien explicitly denied that Aragorn would have been able to do so successfully and so defeat Sauron. Aragorn, for all his high heritage and nobility of character was not on Sauron's level..

Sorry, but I think you're 'doing a Gimli' there:

'Did you say aught to--him? Even Gandalf feared that encounter.' 'You forget to whom you speak,' said Aragorn sternly, and his eyes glinted. 'What did you fear that I should say to him? Did I not openly proclaim my title before the doors of Edoras? Nay, Gimli,' he said in a softer voice, and the grimness left his face, and he looked like one who has laboured in sleepless pain for many nights. 'Nay, my friends, I am the lawful master of the Stone, and I had both the right and the strength to use it, or so I judged. The right cannot be doubted. The strength was enough--barely.' He drew a deep breath. 'It was a bitter struggle, and the weariness is slow to pass. I spoke no word to him, and in the end I wrenched the Stone to my own will. That alone he will find hard to endure. And he beheld me. Yes, Master Gimli, he saw me, but in other guise than you see me here. If that will aid him, then I have done ill. But I do not think so. To know that I lived and walked the earth was a blow to his heart, I deem; for he knew it not till now. The eyes in Orthanc did not see through the armour of Theoden; but Sauron has not forgotten Isildur and the sword of Elendil. Now in the very hour of his great designs the heir of Isildur and the Sword are revealed; for I showed the blade re-forged to him. He is not so mighty yet that he is above fear; nay, doubt ever gnaws him.'

Aragorn has the strength of Will to claim & use the Ring - & Sauron knows that - which is why he fears Aragorn - unless, of course, Aragorn is lying to his friends.

[Kuruharan]

The Rings give some degree of 'power' to any possessor - according to their 'measure'. The statement in the letter is simply incorrect, as it contradicts statements made by characters in the story itself.

Not really.

Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor?

Do you honestly think the Ring, which is fundamentally a part of Sauron, is going to aid and abet another's quest to master it?

I find that unlikely in the extreme. The Ring would probably deceive that individual into thinking it was mastered and then betray said person to Sauron at the first available opportunity. The individual in question would quite likely be so power mad by that point that they wouldn't know if the Ring were truly mastered.

It is probably the seeds of self-doubt that reside in Gandalf (among other things) that make him uniquely capable of mastering the Ring. He would probably be less susceptible to its lies. Saruman does not impress on this score, and quite frankly, neither does Galadriel. Elrond might be a slightly different matter.

Sorry, but the easiest way out of this 'dilemma' is to dismiss Tolkien's statement & let the story stand.

There is no dilemma here. There are only some rather ill-founded opinions that some seem unwilling to let go of, to the point that if they can’t twist Tolkien’s words to suit them they will then just dismiss him out of hand if it is convenient.

Aragorn has the strength of Will to claim & use the Ring

Uhh…no. That passage doesn’t prove this at all. That passage proved that Aragorn had the strength and will to use the palantir (which was rightfully his anyway). The Ring and the palantir were two very different things.

Aragorn is lying to his friends

You are putting words in Aragorn’s mouth. He wasn’t claiming he could master the Ring.

[davem]

It is a question of 'will'. Aragorn's will was stronger than Saruman's - who let it be remembered fell to Sauron via the Palantir. Aragorn not only did not fall to him he actually proved that his will was stronger than Sauron's. Will is the essential element in controlling the Ring. Wresting control of the Palantir (or anything else) from Sauron was something no-one else in Middle-earth could have done.

Aragorn may not have claimed he could master the Ring, but Gandalf, in the Last Debate, clearly states that he could.

This argument centres around one comment in one letter, which was never meant for publication & probably reflects Tolkien's speculations at that time. There is no reason to suppose that he continued to hold that view. And if he did it would have caused as many inconsistencies as his later development of Galadriel & 'Dome of Varda', etc, did.

I think that if another commentator had made that statement about only Gandalf being able to master the Ring you would have laughed them out of court, using the same arguments & quotes that the rest of us have been using, because it doesn't fit the facts.

[Lalwendë]

To me the word 'master' is at the centre of this. I do not think anyone apart from Sauron could have 'mastered' the Ring in the fullest sense of the word. Only Sauron could use the Ring truly wilfully. Others may have been able to make at least intelligent use of the Ring - intelligent as being opposed to merely using it to 'hide'. That's something that I'm sure none of us could argue against - that's part of why the Ring is so dangerous and seductive. It makes people think they could truly 'master' it, when in reality they would never be acting with their own will.

I do think that if say Gandalf had used the Ring then Sauron could have been, if not totally destroyed, then at least fatally harmed (in as far as Maiar can be 'fatally harmed' ). I also think that Saruman could have had as much a chance, such as there was, with the Ring as any of his contemporaries.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

To me the word 'master' is at the centre of this. I do not think anyone apart from Sauron could have 'mastered' the Ring in the fullest sense of the word. Only Sauron could use the Ring truly wilfully. Others may have been able to make at least intelligent use of the Ring - intelligent as being opposed to merely using it to 'hide'. That's something that I'm sure none of us could argue against - that's part of why the Ring is so dangerous and seductive. It makes people think they could truly 'master' it, when in reality they would never be acting with their own will.

I do think that if say Gandalf had used the Ring then Sauron could have been, if not totally destroyed, then at least fatally harmed (in as far as Maiar can be 'fatally harmed' ). I also think that Saruman could have had as much a chance, such as there was, with the Ring as any of his contemporaries.

The LOTR does appear to give a lot of indirect pointers to the fact that a character with a great power of their own COULD wield the Ring & challenge Sauron, & even be capable of casting him from his throne, whilst the challenger would become the new dark lord.

Examples are The Council of Elrond where Elrond speaks of his fear of wielding the Ring, when Gandalf refuses to claim the ring from Frodo whilst still in the Shire, & of course when Frodo offers the Ring to Galadriel. All of these 3 characters show enormous signs of distress when the thought of the Ring being offered to them is mentioned. They all mentioned that should they wield the Ring, they themselves would then become like the Dark Lord Sauron. An interesting point is made by Elrond, wisest of loremasters, when he considers Saruman as an example, stating that by using the arts of the enemy COULD lead to the overthrowing of Sauron.

It is comments like these which paint a picture inside some readers that a character with a great power of their own, & a strong will, could wield the Ring with time & use the Ring to challenge Sauron - that was Sauron's greatest fear, according to Gandalf when he reappears in the White Rider chapter.

So after giving all these hints, all of a sudden we must accept that nobody but perhaps Gandalf may be expected to wield the Ring? It seems unlikely, but then again these comments may be taken to imply that Gandalf was the favourite of all the Wise to be able to wield the Ring (i.e. the one with the best chance of overthrowing Sauron by using the Ring), but that it was still possible for others to do it. That is as near as the truth as far as I am concerned.

[Kuruharan]

It is a question of 'will'. Aragorn's will was stronger than Saruman's

This makes my case stronger.

Aragorn not only did not fall to him he actually proved that his will was stronger than Sauron's. Will is the essential element in controlling the Ring. Wresting control of the Palantir (or anything else) from Sauron was something no-one else in Middle-earth could have done.

Far be it from me to quote letter 246 again, but…

In the contest with the Palantir Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present.
-Letter 246 emphasis mine

Aragorn was able to use the Stone because it belonged to him and answered more readily to his claims of possession. A fact that seems to have somehow escaped most of you is that the Ring belonged to Sauron and wanted to return to him. As we saw throughout the story, it was willing to try anything on anybody to get back to its Master. It wanted other people to think they could master it because it would get back to Sauron all the quicker. In any contest of strength over the Ring between Aragorn and Sauron, the deck would have been impossibly stacked in Sauron’s favor.

Aragorn may not have claimed he could master the Ring, but Gandalf, in the Last Debate, clearly states that he could.

After reading Lalwendë’s post, I think I understand part of the problem here…

To me the word 'master' is at the centre of this. I do not think anyone apart from Sauron could have 'mastered' the Ring in the fullest sense of the word. Only Sauron could use the Ring truly wilfully. Others may have been able to make at least intelligent use of the Ring - intelligent as being opposed to merely using it to 'hide'.

Anybody could attempt to use the Ring. Aragorn could certainly try. Tolkien didn’t say that one couldn’t use the Ring, the question is could they do so without ensuring Sauron’s ultimate triumph. Going back to the passage in question…

For if we have found this thing, there are some among us with strength enough to wield it
-The Last Debate

Gandalf did not say they could master the Ring. Wielding and mastering are not the same thing. If you wield the Ring without mastering it you will lose. Aragorn could wield it, but he could not truly master it and if he tried he was destined to fail.

And I can hear you even now typing away something to the effect of, “Well, why was Sauron so afraid?”

He had lost the War of the Last Alliance even with the Ring. His assault on Gondor had failed. There was cause for concern. As we saw with his earlier belief that the Ring had been destroyed, he doesn’t seem to know all the things that might happen in different circumstances with the Ring. He probably couldn’t be sure what would happen if somebody made a serious attempt to claim the Ring. We can’t say what the exact effect of this would have been.

Tolkien’s letter was written from the perspective of authorial omniscience. Simply put, Tolkien had knowledge his characters did not.

I think that if another commentator had made that statement about only Gandalf being able to master the Ring you would have laughed them out of court, using the same arguments & quotes that the rest of us have been using, because it doesn't fit the facts.

But this is not another commentator, this is the author of the works themselves. I am not going to assume that I know or understand his works better than he did.

They all mentioned that should they wield the Ring, they themselves would then become like the Dark Lord Sauron.

This is only what the characters themselves thought. Boromir and Sam also thought the exact same thing at one point or another, yet I don’t hear anybody clamoring for their induction into the Hall of Potential Successful Challengers to Sauron. If the Ring was capable of deluding Boromir and Sam, why can’t it be capable of similarly deluding Elrond, Gandalf, and Galadriel? I think the temptation for them would be even more extreme (hence their distress).