'Spun Candy' anyone?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

And back to Tolkien. Its interesting his point about stories and about them being real, as I always get the sense that Tolkien's stories and characters are thoroughly real. How similar are tales of Aragorn/Arwen and Beren/Luthien to Tolkien's own experience of being separated from Edith? Sam as being like the ordinary but strong men he met in the Somme? Gollum is a mentally tormented human? Frodo's pain is like the pain of shellshock and PTSD? Eowyn's desperation to fight is like the desperation to fight of the 15 year old boys who lied in order to go to the battlefields of France? Tolkien's work is full of true stories.

Okay, I haven't had and won't have time today to read over Lal's links but I can suggest a small proviso about this bit about real stories and Edith and Tolkien being separated from her.

Most of us I think know the story that Tolkien chose the inscription for his and Edith's gravestone, reading Beren for him and Luthien for her. We don't know if Edith agreed to this or not. And the story also goes that Tolkien once watched Edith dance as Beren did Luthien.

But what if we take Smith of Wootton Major as having some autobiographical significance, as being as 'real' as these other stories in the Legendarium?

Is Smith as real as the Beren/Luthien stories? Does Smith suggest that Tolkien had to be isolated, away from, distant his family? Was it something that he experienced which his family did not share? If so, how can Edith 'be' Luthien?

Is the 'reality' of fairy that it is a gift to special individuals and not everyone? Is fairy an isolating experience?

Of course, autobiography is not the only form of realism, so perhaps these questions are not what Lal had in mind.

But, I write in haste. 'Real' stories engage me now.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bb

But what if we take Smith of Wootton Major as having some autobiographical significance, as being as 'real' as these other stories in the Legendarium?

This is the kind of thing I was trying to get at in my earlier post (no 108)

I'm not sure whether it takes us too far off topic, but perhaps it ties in whith my post on Tolkien's agreement that he had 'broken through the veil'.

We are, perhaps, not dealing here with 'relevance' to the Primary World, which Pullman places so much emphasis on, or with 'meaning' or a desire to change the world, but rather a specific experience of another 'world' or kind of 'reality'.

Tolkien seems to imply, in Smith, that Faery is a reality of a kind, a world which is open to certain individuals. Those who are permitted to enter have experiences which are perhaps denied to the rest of us - though we may experience it vicariously. Of course, it may be that the reports of those who have wandered there may open the way to others. If nothing else those accounts make us aware of that other world, that there is more going on (that there is more than one history of the world, as John Crowley put it).

It may be that, rather than Middle-earth being a feigned history of our world, is actually a true history (or one of them) of Faery.

But what is the role of these 'Elf-friends', these 'Walkers between the Worlds'? It is, certainly, a mediating role. They are a living link between this world & Faery, a bridge across a void of a kind. 'Elf-friends' in the Legendarium have high, but often tragic, destinies. Often they find they belong in neither world, usually they find it is their own world that they can no longer remain in - they pass into Faery at the end. This is true of Frodo, Bilbo, Sam, Tuor & Earendel. For others there is a final bereavement as they cannot in the end pass into Faery & must live out a lonely existence in their own world (Smith is the classic case).

It seems, perhaps, that 'Elf-friend' is a sacrificial role, & that a reward is not guaranteed. Yet Tolkien clearly feels that it is essential for the human race as a whole. (Two quotes from the Smith essay)

'It is of course possible that they have a 'moral obligation (the sanctions of which we do nor know). It may be contained in the word 'kinship , and also he due to the fact that in the last resort the enemy for enemies) of Faery are the same as those of Men. In certainty the Elvish world as here depicted is not independent of the existence of the human world, as distinct from Men. The world known to Men as their habitation did and could exist without Men; but not Men without it. It is probable that the world of Faery could not exist* without our world, and is affected by the events in it — the reverse being also true. The 'health' of both is affected by state of the other. Men have not the power to assist the Elvenfolk in the ordering and defence of their realm; but the Elves have the power (subject to finding co-operation from within) to assist men in the protection of our world, especially in the attempt to re-direct Men when their development tends to the defacing or destruction of their world. The Elves may thus have also an enlightened self-interest in human affairs.

They, the Elvenfolk are thus 'beneficent' with regard to Men, and are not wholly alien, though many things and creatures in Faery itself are alien to Men and even actively hostile. Their good will is seen mainly in attempting to keep or restore relationships between the two worlds, since the Elves (and still some Men) realize that this love of Faery is essential to the full and proper human development. The love of Faery is the love of love: a relationship towards all things, animate and inanimate, which includes love and respect, and removes or modifies the spirit of possession and domination. Without it even plain 'Utility' will in fact become less useful; or will turn to ruthlessness and lead only to mere power, ultimately destructive.* The Apprentice relationship in the tale is thus interesting. Men in a large part of their activities are or should be in an apprentice status as regards the Elven folk. In an attempt to rescue Wootton from its decline, the Elves reverse the situation, and the King of Faery himself comes and serves as an apprentice in the village.

The 'health' & even survival of the Elven world is dependent on the health & survival of the Human world. Hence, a connection between the worlds must be established & maintained by both sides.

Whether Tolkien thought of himself as an 'Elf-friend' is an open question, but Flieger names him as one. He did feel isolated quite often, & the simple explanation for this is the loss of his parents at an early age & the loss of his childhood friends in WWI. Yet is that the whole story? The way he gravitated to others like Lewis who also shared the same love of myth & legend (hence of Faery) perhaps can be explained by his need for people who could understand his own 'double' life.

[drigel]

I'm not sure whether it takes us too far off topic, but perhaps it ties in whith my post on Tolkien's agreement that he had 'broken through the veil'.

Thats the way I had always viewed that quote: Going from something like the early Silm to LOTR, was going from extreme (elvish POV) 3rd person to humble (lowly hobbit) 1st person would take not only a break in the veil, but also a few years of walking around behind it.

Not sure if this had been mentioned, but I just got through reading an article about the beginning of filming the 1st of HDM. Nichole Kidman getting an invite for a role.

[davem]

Originally Posted by drigel

Not sure if this had been mentioned, but I just got through reading an article about the beginning of filming the 1st of HDM. Nichole Kidman getting an invite for a role.

I also note that the new Bond, Daniel Craig, is to play Lord Asriel.

'The name's Asriel. Lord Asriel. Licensed to kill (God)'

Wonder if they'll get Shirley Bassey to sing the theme song: 'Lord Asr-eel, he's the man, the man with deicidal tendencies....'

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

I also note that the new Bond, Daniel Craig, is to play Lord Asriel.

'The name's Asriel. Lord Asriel. Licensed to kill (God)'

Wonder if they'll get Shirley Bassey to sing the theme song: 'Lord Asr-eel, he's the man, the man with deicide tendencies....'

I rather think that other English "B" list saviour, William Blake, might be chosen, given Pullman's great admiration for Blake. I think a version of his famous poem (well known as a hymn) might do nicely: Jerusalem , from his prophetic book Milton, another of Pullman's favourites.

Building Jerusalem on England's green and pleasant land? An early version of the republic of heaven? It is part of England's mythology that they are the descedents of the chosen people, after all.



EDIT: For those of you who might know know Blake or the history of this poem, here's some info: and did those feet in ancient times

[drigel]

IMDB states that other wanted actors are;
Ian McShane, Jason Isaacs and Samual L Jackson. That might be just enough to suck me in. I am a big McShane fan after seeing the Deadwood series.