The Lord of the Bible?

[narfforc]

I for one enjoyed the countering of Davem, Although I have not contributed much to this thread, I to withdraw, for a discussion with no passion or opposition is not for me.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Raynor

One other thought I will share with you is the council of Elrond; in the Bible, we have the wise men coming to greet Christianity's greatest hero, following certain signs. At the council of Elrond, emissaries from far off, following various "signs", arrive to a meeting which is, figuratively, the birth of Frodo as a hero

I agree with Lal here. Frodo is already a hero before. His heroism changes at the Council of Elrond as it is here that he chooses to take the ring first. Until Rivendell, he had no other chance than to do what he did, he would have been killed otherwise.
Jesus still had a long way to go before he accepted his path.
All the wise men didn't come to see the birth of a hero. They came because they have been summoned to discuss some grave matter, or because they had news to tell, or because they dreamt of some freaky thing. Of course, you might say that Eru managed to assemble the bunch just in time. Where are the shepherds, by the way?
Just because there is no parallel to another religion doesn't make it a parallel in Christianity: it could be no parallel at all. Your proposed parallel doesn't strike me, at least not yet.

edit: cross-posted with Lal, of course.

[Raynor]

But if you put some ideas out on here I might see something they have links to, and in which case I'll stick a reply on.

Well, I would firstly reffer to my post #247:

- the saviour, a godly being is sent to rekindle the hope in good; he is "despised" [or put whatever word fits you] in two of the most powerful kindgoms of Men, (Gondor + Rohan); he sacrifices himself so that evil may not prevail and returns to seal the the faith of the incarnation of evil; one of his inner circle, who for a time fell to temptation, repents;
- the King of Men returns to what might be called the holliest [or significant, or whatever] city of Middle-Earth; he heals the wounded and calls back the humans from the dead
- of all the human race, the only two ones who are allowed into the "kingdom of heaven" are the humble ones ("Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven" - Matei 3:5)
- the saviour is tempted by the power of evil, who promises all the riches of the world; he goes up the mountain, carrying a tremendous burden; for a while, a faithful one carries that burden for him.

Some refferences to the likes of the figures of Noach and Mary would also come handy, for the sake of the discussion, though I don't consider them to be "core contingency".

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Just because there is no parallel to another religion doesn't make it a parallel in Christianity:

I wouldn't necessarily say that the only foundation for calling it a Christian parallel is that there are no parallels to other religions; some existing Christian ones do stand trial.

it could be no parallel at all.

A religious message which is entirely new, independent of any previous revelation? It would strike me as very full of "vanity", if I can so use the term. Or would you say there is no religious message at all? Either case, I am looking forward to your arguments.

Your proposed parallel doesn't strike me, at least not yet.

I agree it's not the best one, to be mild .

[Lalwendë]

Satans, Saurons and stuff.

I read some of the parallels concerning Satan/Sauron/Melkor. I've often thought, like others, of Melkor as being a bit like the Lucifer who was cast out of Heaven for being too smart (in the bad sense). But there's a Hell (sorry ) of a lot missing in this analogy.

In the Bible, Satan sends evil into the world by tempting Adam and Eve who had previously been Good and lived in Paradise. He is the cause of The Fall - or you could argue that Adam and Eve are. Either way, the world was inherently Good and then Satan brought Evil into it with The Fall. In Tolkien's cosmology however, our 'Satan' is there causing trouble before any people inhabit Arda. There is no period of Good. Melkor adds his own theme to the Music and thus the world is created complete with inherent evil. It suffuses everything, even the land itself, and the Elves! Letter 286 goes into this. So right away, Melkor is a different kettle of fish.

There are also some incredibly strong correspondences with Norse mythology. In this we find Loki the Trickster, and while Tolkien has no amoral Trickster (unless its Ungoliant), there is a strong link with what happens to Loki, who is eventually chained down, to be kept that way until the end of time and Ragnarok. As is Melkor, who is chained and cast into the Void until the end of time, at which point he will re-enter Arda and fight one last battle. Melkor will do this with his own followers. Loki will come down from the North in his ship with Hel and all her subjects. This can be found in the Eddas, which Tolkien knew backwards.

And now for the 'stuff'. The concept of Satan was taken from Zoroastrianism, when the Jews were in exile in Babylon; Zoroastrianism followed a system where there was a constant conflict between good/evil, which is why they had Satan. Interesting that Islam, which grew up in the same area as Zoroastrianism, also includes Satan as a mythical figure.

Didn't mention Sauron but I liked the sibilance.

[Raynor]

I am not familiar with Norse mythology; is Loki involved in any manner in the corrupting/Fall of humans, as Melkor is? From what I read online, he voluntarily helps the gods too. I am looking forward to your comments on Sauron, since he, as the last "mythological form of evil", is more relevant to our discussion

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I am not familiar with Norse mythology; is Loki involved in any manner in the corrupting/Fall of humans, as Melkor is? From what I read online, he voluntarily helps the gods too. I am looking forward to your comments on Sauron, since he, as the last "mythological form of evil", is more relevant to our discussion

Loki indeed helps the Gods, well some of them anyway. He's the Trickster and does what he will. As I say, Melkor has corrupted the world before its even made, unlike Satan, who corrupts an inherently Good world. Arda on the other hand has Evil in-built as t'were.

You can find Sauron in Odin's bad aspects. And you might also find Gandalf in Odin's good aspects, which is interesting given that Sauron and Gandalf are supposed to be equals in terms of 'power'; so the two sides of Odin come into conflict with each other in the form of Sauron and Gandalf.

Odin is one-eyed. He is a God of war and death and destruction. He has a Ring which spawns other magical rings and can see all from his kingdom. Odin travels about dressed as an old man with a staff, grey beard, cloak and hat. He uses magic and rides the greatest of all horses.

I didn't promise any sauron, I really did put his name there just for the sound of it. But you've got some all the same.

- the saviour, a godly being is sent to rekindle the hope in good; he is "despised" [or put whatever word fits you] in two of the most powerful kindgoms of Men, (Gondor + Rohan); he sacrifices himself so that evil may not prevail and returns to seal the the faith of the incarnation of evil; one of his inner circle, who for a time fell to temptation, repents;
- the King of Men returns to what might be called the holliest [or significant, or whatever] city of Middle-Earth; he heals the wounded and calls back the humans from the dead
- of all the human race, the only two ones who are allowed into the "kingdom of heaven" are the humble ones ("Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven" - Matei 3:5)
- the saviour is tempted by the power of evil, who promises all the riches of the world; he goes up the mountain, carrying a tremendous burden; for a while, a faithful one carries that burden for him.

Anyway, I was waiting for you to reply as I wanted to reply to this without double posting. I think we've dealt with point 2 - but yes there are some interesting parallels here; it seems that the idea of divine kings with healing powers went back way before Christ's time, but the fact that Christ was himself depicted by the writers of the Gospels as a King (think this was mostly In Matthew?) and a healer suggests that they too picked up on this powerful concept.

I like point 3 - as this also ties in with Tolkien's idea that it was the ordinary men in WWI who gave up the greatest sacrifices, so he really did see put into action that quote from the Bible (which is one I like myself). However, what about that we have three Hobbits who go to Valinor, not two? What about Bilbo?

I would venture to say that Bilbo is not all that humble, in fact he's quite a proud little Hobbit. And he is the one Hobbit who uses the Ring the most - not out of a lust for power but mostly to keep away from the pesky neighbours. Free from malice but not entirely innocent. And that also links to point 4. Note that Sam too is tempted by the Ring. Perhaps its not the bearing of the Ring itself which destroys Sam and Frodo, but where they take it, and what they do with it. Gollum is the most badly affected by it, but then he uses it to kill and steal.

[mark12_30]

Before I forget... Regarding The White City. Is it a Holy City? Good question. What jumps out at me is that the descendants of The Silver Tree (Telperion, right? ) grew there.

Strider's song--
"The Light upon the Silver Tree
Fell like bright rain in gardens of the kings of old."

"O Gondor, Gondor, shall men behold the silver tree
or west wind blow again between the mountains and the sea?"

In addition to the healing and the tactical victories-- The finding of the scion of the Silver Tree, up in the mountains, sealed/ proved/ verified Aragorn's claim. And under his reign, the white tree (A white tree) flowered in Minas Tirith again.

Now having said all that-- how can I resist?-- rewind to the age of the trees, in Valinor. Paradise-- a garden-- shining with the light of those two trees.

There was another garden, a paradise, containing two particular, peculiar trees. There was the tree of knowledge of good and evil; and there was the tree of life.

[davem]

Having had time to consider my sins I hope I will be allowed to return to the debate

Originally Posted by Mark

There was another garden, a paradise, containing two particular, peculiar trees. There was the tree of knowledge of good and evil; and there was the tree of life.

I think we must accept this as the origin of The White Tree of Gondor. A reading of Carpenter's Biography & the Letters will demonstrate beyond any doubt that Tolkien never actually encountered a tree anywhere else. Trees are entirely absent in England (apart from one special one that belongs to Her Majesty the Queen (Gawd Bless 'er) – but this fact has only been revealed recently under the Thirty Year Rule & its existence would not have been known to Tolkien.

There are certainly no mentions of trees in Northern mythology or folklore, so it is impossible that Tolkien could have gotten the idea there either. (Its fairly clear that Tolkien was ignorant of trees as he depicted them walking around on a number of occasions & there is no mention of trees walking around in the Biblical record)

Now, an apology. I won't be able to participate further in this thread as I am currently putting together a new one: Lord of the Trousers. The inspiration for this new thread was the realisation that Tolkien himself wore trousers (he rarely, as far as we know, left the house without them) and so did a number of his characters. This use of trousers was clearly of major significance to Tolkien, as he deliberately introduced them into his secondary world. I think an in depth exploration of how & why Tolkien used Trousers in his writings – for instance why some characters wear them & others don't - would be very interesting & shed new light on Tolkien's creative life. I hope to see the thread take off (but hopefully not the trousers). I'm sure many Downers will be able to put forward examples of trouser usage (& possible mis-usage) in Tolkien's works.

[Raynor]

I find the Norse comparison instructive, perhaps we could expand this to other areas as well

You can find Sauron in Odin's bad aspects.

I wouldn't agree; Odin is, ultimately, a good deity (right?), while Sauron is, for the most part, evil. [I mean, all supreme deities have an aspect which is destructive; but there are certain destructions which are not evil in and of themselves (such as death, which is ultimately, a blessing) while other such acts stem from nihilism, rebellion, thirst for ultimate power.]

it seems that the idea of divine kings with healing powers went back way before Christ's time,

Are there similar events in the other major religions? I am a bit familiar with the Gita, but I don't remember something of the likes.

However, what about that we have three Hobbits who go to Valinor, not two?

*slap* Actually, it was Sam that I forgot about in my counting - not anymore ["Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel." - Letter #154]

I would venture to say that Bilbo is not all that humble, in fact he's quite a proud little Hobbit.

It seems to me that Bilbo put up with a lot of dwarven scorn, quite bravely (can I say Christianly? ). Even more importantly, he is the first person to give up the One Ring (Isildur did consider it, never go to putting it into practice); afterwards, Sam did give up the ring too, but that was after several days, not ~ 8 decades, of possesion.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

In the Bible, Satan sends evil into the world by tempting Adam and Eve who had previously been Good and lived in Paradise. He is the cause of The Fall - or you could argue that Adam and Eve are. Either way, the world was inherently Good and then Satan brought Evil into it with The Fall. In Tolkien's cosmology however, our 'Satan' is there causing trouble before any people inhabit Arda. There is no period of Good. Melkor adds his own theme to the Music and thus the world is created complete with inherent evil. It suffuses everything, even the land itself, and the Elves! Letter 286 goes into this. So right away, Melkor is a different kettle of fish.

I'd posted in a very similar thread that Middle Earth could not be a pre-Christian or more specifically a pre-Abrahamic world. Posts on this thread have made me think more about the parallels and so I've come up with a new answer. Possibly, Arda could be Earth preNoachian Flood. Previously I stated that Earth did not go 'downhill' or become ungood until Adam and Eve sinned. Up to that point, creation was good.

But what about Lucifer?

In the first book of John (Christian Bible) Satan is said to be sinning from the beginning, and so we can see him to be like Melkor in that both were rebelling against Eru's/YHWH's will before the creation of humankind. So that fits. We could posit that somewhere in the east, before the tribes of men came to the western part of Middle Earth (Beleriand?), that there existed Adam et al. Also, I think that the Sil states that Morgoth went amongst men when the children of the sun first appeared, and maybe to one he appeared as a snake (dragon perhaps?).

The remainder of the Bible, even the New Testament, could then be considered to have taken place not in Middle Earth but elsewhere, and the revelation of Christ had not yet reach the northwestern shores by LotR. For that, though, we would have to assume that Noah's flood was either local or a retelling of the fall of Numenor.

Please note that I mean not to offend or defend, but just saw that, with a little thought, one could align the Sil and the Christian Bible. Also note that one may have to interpret some of the Bible differently, and some demoninations may interpret otherwise.

[Lalwendë]

Morgoth affects the very fabric of Arda before its even created, by giving his own 'tune' to the Music (I think it might be like some of that Hard House you hear banging out of barely legal modded Novas ), whereas yes, Satan might be bad from the beginning, but the world is created at least before he gets a chance to go and corrupt anything. So in The real World under Christian thought, the world itself is a good place, it's Satan and humans who are the 'sinners'; whereas in Arda, everything has the potential to be bad. You can see examples of this where Tolkien even describes flowers and animals which are 'evil'!

Hmm, wouldn't this be forcing it to fit though? Although there are so many interpretations of the Bible I'm sure it would fit at least one sect or faith? Come to think of it, this whole thread has proved one thing at least that The Bible and Tolkien's work have in common - both can be turned inside out and interpreted any number of imaginable ways!

Originally Posted by Raynor

And if we do agree that LotR reflects a Norse Light, what kind of Light is that, where men are sacrificed to gods? It looks more like un-light to me

Ah, but this Light would be, as Tolkien said to Milton Waldman:

It should possess the tone and quality that I desired, somewhat cool and clear, be redolent of our 'air' (the clime and soil of the North West, meaning Britain and the hither parts of Europe: not Italy or the Aegean, still less the East)

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Morgoth affects the very fabric of Arda before its even created, by giving his own 'tune' to the Music (I think it might be like some of that Hard House you hear banging out of barely legal modded Novas ), whereas yes, Satan might be bad from the beginning, but the world is created at least before he gets a chance to go and corrupt anything.

I don't know the Bible well enough to agree or disagree. Think that one might interpret Job 38:4-7 as meaning that the angels were singing while the Earth was being created, and so to me that would put their creation prior to Earth's. And maybe someone with a Sil handy could provide the Music quotes, as from memory I thought that at least the first few bars/chords weren't in discord. Anyway, maybe the argument could be made that at first Melkor/Lucifer were not ungood, then shortly after creation and during the shaping of the world started whistling their own tunes.

So in The real World under Christian thought, the world itself is a good place, it's Satan and humans who are the 'sinners'; whereas in Arda, everything has the potential to be bad. You can see examples of this where Tolkien even describes flowers and animals which are 'evil'!

I see the difference and admit that some extra effort may be needed with the shoehorn. Before Adam and Eve fall, there are no thorns or fangs. On the other hand, these two are driven out of Eden, which, if the whole world were affected by mankind's sin, then what would be the point of driving them from a specific place (except to keep them from the tree of life)? Did Eden stay good and, like Melian's Girdle, exclude the thorns and fangs which already roamed elsewhere?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by alatar

I see the difference and admit that some extra effort may be needed with the shoehorn. Before Adam and Eve fall, there are no thorns or fangs. On the other hand, these two are driven out of Eden, which, if the whole world were affected by mankind's sin, then what would be the point of driving them from a specific place (except to keep them from the tree of life)? Did Eden stay good and, like Melian's Girdle, exclude the thorns and fangs which already roamed elsewhere?

But in Christianity its the actions of the first two humans which causes evil to enter the world; if they had resisted then we must presume it would not have happened. Whereas in Arda, the peoples (peoples because I'm including Elves and Dwarves) are blameless. Rather than resisting the evil/sin that's become inherent in human nature, they must resist the evil/sin that's in the very fabric of the world.

I'm not sure why we would want to force it though; there are a fair few interesting avenues to pursue with regard to Christianity such as Grace, free will vs fate etc, and in essence the good/evil fight is in accord with a Christian morality (but not just a Christian one ).

[Raynor]

As I previously quoted from the Atrabeth and Myths Transformed, Tolkien's world is actually good, unless evil is stirred [after all, Eru's secret fire burns at the heart of it].

Concerning the timing of Ea and our world, he noted this in letter #211:

I hope the, evidently long but undefined, gap* in time between the Fall of Barad-dur and our Days is sufficient for 'literary credibility', even for readers acquainted with what is known or surmised of 'pre-history'.

*I imagine the gap to be about 6000 years : that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as S.A. and T.A. But they have, I think, quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh.

Originally Posted by Lal

Ah, but this Light would be, as Tolkien said to Milton Waldman:

I am genuinly puzzled about what you are trying to say. [If you are reffering to the dedication of his myths to Englad, he admited this was something he attempted ("once upon a time") and amusingly asks the reader not to laugh at that - and ends by calling the whole enterprise as "absurd". But we have been through this already.]

[Raynor]

Sorry for double posting, things are moving at a fast pace here:

But in Christianity its the actions of the first two humans which causes evil to enter the world; if they had resisted then we must presume it would not have happened.

What about the snake? Was he wholly good? And isn't evil something of a moral quality? If so, how could Adam and Eve create it? How could they possibly amend God's creation in such a fundamental way? At most, they made an evil choice, possibly the first (most likely the second, considering the snake), but that is a far cry from amending God's creation.

Whereas in Arda, the peoples (peoples because I'm including Elves and Dwarves) are blameless.

How blameless were the Men that succumbed to Melkor's temptations? In the begining, he offered them gifts - and Eru promised them he would take care of them, should they call on to him - I really have to quote this, its an all time favorite:

Ye are my children. I have sent you to dwell here. In time ye will inherit all this Earth, but first ye must be children and learn. Call on me and I shall hear; for I am watching over you

Was the temptation higher than they could handle - such as Frodo's temptation? In fact, they knew of Eru's power and assistance, but still fail to call on Him, they didn't mind about him - I have little if any doubt Eru would have kicked Melkor from one end of Ea to the other, should he have been supplicated. But no, Men failed and fell - in the end, to the glory of Eru.

[littlemanpoet]

I've always considered the Atlantis/Numenor sinking to be tied up with the Noachian worldwide flood. But maybe the Noachian comes later (if you want to play this game) and may be considered the last worldwide (or major) calamity.

You don't have to have LotR happening as late as you're suggesting for the whole thing to fit.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I've always considered the Atlantis/Numenor sinking to be tied up with the Noachian worldwide flood.

I'm with you there, at least part way. One may think that Plato, when speaking of Atlantis, really meant Numenor. Or that the sinking of Numenor was, as the facts became blurred over the years and retellings added to the tale, Noah's flood. Surely one can find some comparisons between the two (Noah's flood and the drowning of Numenor) to make a case for a common ancestor (as you say, if we agree to play that game).

But maybe the Noachian comes later (if you want to play this game) and may be considered the last worldwide (or major) calamity.

Agreed. You either have a local flood or a global flood that happens after the beginning of the Fourth Age (prior to that, you'd think that the Elves would have recorded such an event, should they have survived it).

You don't have to have LotR happening as late as you're suggesting for the whole thing to fit.

I think that we're agreeing here. LotR could have happened prior to Noah's building of the Ark.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

LotR could have happened prior to Noah's building of the Ark.

Intriguing possibilities being considered here, alatar. Would this suggest that hobbits, along with unicorns, were not brought onto the ArK? Did they start hiding away from the big people even before Noah was seeking his two by twos for the trip? And were orcs wiped out in the Flood? So many points to consider!

EDIT: And perhaps Noah had such difficulty trying to recognise a female dwarf that he unfortunately chose two male dwarfs?