The Lord of the Bible?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Morgoth affects the very fabric of Arda before its even created, by giving his own 'tune' to the Music (I think it might be like some of that Hard House you hear banging out of barely legal modded Novas ), whereas yes, Satan might be bad from the beginning, but the world is created at least before he gets a chance to go and corrupt anything.

I don't know the Bible well enough to agree or disagree. Think that one might interpret Job 38:4-7 as meaning that the angels were singing while the Earth was being created, and so to me that would put their creation prior to Earth's. And maybe someone with a Sil handy could provide the Music quotes, as from memory I thought that at least the first few bars/chords weren't in discord. Anyway, maybe the argument could be made that at first Melkor/Lucifer were not ungood, then shortly after creation and during the shaping of the world started whistling their own tunes.

So in The real World under Christian thought, the world itself is a good place, it's Satan and humans who are the 'sinners'; whereas in Arda, everything has the potential to be bad. You can see examples of this where Tolkien even describes flowers and animals which are 'evil'!

I see the difference and admit that some extra effort may be needed with the shoehorn. Before Adam and Eve fall, there are no thorns or fangs. On the other hand, these two are driven out of Eden, which, if the whole world were affected by mankind's sin, then what would be the point of driving them from a specific place (except to keep them from the tree of life)? Did Eden stay good and, like Melian's Girdle, exclude the thorns and fangs which already roamed elsewhere?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by alatar

I see the difference and admit that some extra effort may be needed with the shoehorn. Before Adam and Eve fall, there are no thorns or fangs. On the other hand, these two are driven out of Eden, which, if the whole world were affected by mankind's sin, then what would be the point of driving them from a specific place (except to keep them from the tree of life)? Did Eden stay good and, like Melian's Girdle, exclude the thorns and fangs which already roamed elsewhere?

But in Christianity its the actions of the first two humans which causes evil to enter the world; if they had resisted then we must presume it would not have happened. Whereas in Arda, the peoples (peoples because I'm including Elves and Dwarves) are blameless. Rather than resisting the evil/sin that's become inherent in human nature, they must resist the evil/sin that's in the very fabric of the world.

I'm not sure why we would want to force it though; there are a fair few interesting avenues to pursue with regard to Christianity such as Grace, free will vs fate etc, and in essence the good/evil fight is in accord with a Christian morality (but not just a Christian one ).

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

But in Christianity its the actions of the first two humans which causes evil to enter the world; if they had resisted then we must presume it would not have happened. Whereas in Arda, the peoples (peoples because I'm including Elves and Dwarves) are blameless. Rather than resisting the evil/sin that's become inherent in human nature, they must resist the evil/sin that's in the very fabric of the world.

Note that previously I'd stated exactly your point, as that's how it would seem. But when I'd read that, from the beginning, Satan was sinning, it made me consider this again. Now I doubt that there are answers out there, but wouldn't it seem that, if from the beginning, Satan were evil and were present in whatever form in the Garden of Evil, that, basically, one could state that evil were already in the world before Adam and Eve took their first bite of the same? It almost seems a legal technicality to be argued before a jury.

Now, one might counter that evil may have existed in the universe prior to Adam/Eve's sin, and that it was their willful choice of it that brought it into the world (tangent - if there is God and Free Will, sin would exist simply because one could chose 'not God.').

Anyway, I do like, as you state, that in Tolkien's world not everything is born with stain (there's a nappy joke in there somewhere), but with the choice to embrace or resist it. That may be why a 'works' theology (as opposed to grace) is popular even outside of Middle Earth - you feel like you're doing something, whether adding negative or positive chits, but that, in your beginning, you start out with a zero balance and not in debt.