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Old 09-24-2006, 07:48 PM   #1
Saurreg
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That's the problem with the world today. You have people "championing" the rights and interests of people they have no heartfelt interesting in representing at all or raising similar notions just for the sake of media attraction.

The best way is of course to ignore them. Even the act of debuking them adds to their influence and power as these folks capitalize on such sensations.

Tolkien referring to Germanic laws as absurd and rubbing it into Germans (why would they ask if he had Aryan blood??) by stating that the Jews were gifted were pure gems IMO.
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Old 09-24-2006, 10:09 PM   #2
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Rather, the correct way to argue against racism is to provide positive counter-arguments. In fact, on the whole, LotR has always struck me as being quite anti-racist in showing beings from many different cultures (Dwarves, Elves, Hobbits, Dunedain, Rohirrim) working together as allies for the common good. One could go further and provide more positive arguments - for example the excellent passage where Sam sees a dead Easterling (or is it a Southron?) in Ithilien and feels sympathy for him.
Aiwendil, I have never thought that JRRT was racist in his books, but this has always made me wonder:
From the Silmarillion
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For Elves and Men are the Children of Ilúvatar......
'Behold I love the Earth, which shall be a mansion for the Quendi and the Atani! But the Quendi shall be the fairest of all earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all my Children; and they shall have the greater bliss in this world. But to the Atani I will give a new gift.'
It is my personal view that Tolkien meant for the Elves to be the ideal race, or the way that perfect humans should be. But if both Elves and Men were created in the same theme of Ilúvatar's music, how is it that all of the Elves are white, while men have different skin colours?
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Old 09-25-2006, 03:05 AM   #3
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I think quite many of you miss the cultural aspect here. Tolkien wanted to write a mythology for England. English(wo)men are white.

Usually temperature and thus skin color don't vary much in one small region (north-western ME) and as the story concentrates on this smallish area, it only makes sense that humans don't vary really much in skin colors. (Europe is a relatively small area too. You don't find black, yellow or red skinned people in Europe. Like in north western Middle-Earth in Europe hair and eye colors vary though.)

Tolkien just chose the white-complexion area because the tales he mostly used were from this area/ethnicity, like was the people he wished to write a history and legend for.

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But if both Elves and Men were created in the same theme of Ilúvatar's music, how is it that all of the Elves are white, while men have different skin colours?
Well, I guess Elves are somewhat European. As LotR was to be a mythology for England the people who were supposed to be the most beatiful represented a caucasian/European model of beauty. That only makes sense. On the other hand, it might be that Tolkien simply held white skin more beautiful or "noble" and thus thought it befitted his Elves the best.

And is the appearance of the Avari who lived in south and east described anywhere? Maybe they were black?
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Old 09-25-2006, 06:20 AM   #4
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Just a quick point picking up on what Elu Ancalime quotes from Tolkien's letter about his German publishers' enquiry:

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Do I suffer this impertinence because of the possession of a German name, or do their lunatic laws require a certificate of arisch origin from all persons of all countries?
It was actually most probably the latter. The authorities in Germany at that time sought to excise all non-Aryan Art as much as possible, and would have sought out racial information on writers, artists etc as far as they could obtain it, in order to 'spare' the German people the risk of reading something 'dangerous'. Tolkien's indignance about this speaks volumes as Britain was by no means free of its own fascists and racial supremacists.
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Old 09-25-2006, 08:10 AM   #5
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Well, I guess Elves are somewhat European. As LotR was to be a mythology for England the people who were supposed to be the most beatiful represented a caucasian/European model of beauty. That only makes sense. On the other hand, it might be that Tolkien simply held white skin more beautiful or "noble" and thus thought it befitted his Elves the best.

And is the appearance of the Avari who lived in south and east described anywhere? Maybe they were black?
Notice that you refer to LotR, while I refer to the nature of all the Elves since the making of the 3rd theme, in the Quenta Silmarillion. The thing that strikes me the most interesting, is while both Elves and Men were created in the same theme, all of the Elves are white, (not only the ones in LotR), yet Men, are racially different. (colour of their skin). (If someone has seen any evidence that there are multi racial elves, please show it, because I have missed that.)
That bit about the elves have always made me wonder.
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Old 10-03-2006, 10:36 PM   #6
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Question Curious?

A weird thought came to me the other day. If you notice the photo page in the barrow donws, you would notice that most of the members pictured there, are mostly white.
I wonder if that has something to do with the fact that people don't find it weird or curious that the Elves are only white.
But then again, perhaps it has nothing to do with it.
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Old 10-05-2006, 03:15 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maédhros
A weird thought came to me the other day. If you notice the photo page in the barrow donws, you would notice that most of the members pictured there, are mostly white.
I wonder if that has something to do with the fact that people don't find it weird or curious that the Elves are only white.
But then again, perhaps it has nothing to do with it.
I'd say the reason for most 'downers being caucasian is that most of the people who have access to both Tolkien's books and internet (frequently) are in today's world white caucasian.

I don't think that has anything to do with the skin colour of the Elves. Honestly can't imagine eg. a black person reading the book and throwing it to the waste paper basket because s/he discovers the elves are white... Of course we must admit the fact that LotR is more entwined with western cultural tradition than for example chinese or north african cultural tradition and thus it's more widely known and loved in western countries (in which most people are caucasian).
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