The Big Bad Read - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lalwendë · 10-01-2006, 06:27 AM

Well I didn't know who you meant, I've remained blisfully unaware of her, but now I can see the similarities between the two. Meh.

I was thinking, there are some particular types of bad guys in LotR (and lots of them), and for fun I've had a go at some categories, feel free to move things around:

Simple Bad Guys (we don't see their potential for good)
Morgoth
Sauron
Witch King

The Ones Who Stray From the Path (in varying degrees)
Saruman
Denethor
Grima
Boromir
Dead Men of Dunharrow (I know, they come good)

The Exploited (used by the powers that be)
Gollum
Ungoliant
Orcs (bit controversial this one

)
Dunlendings

Natural Terrors (unpredicatable, linked to nature)
Old Man Willow
Shelob
Barrow Wights

Have some fun arguing with that lot.

The Sixth Wizard · 10-03-2006, 04:58 AM

Curses, defeated again by those Harry Potter nerds! They usurp the spotlight even more than men!!

Anyway, you guys have it completely right. You mourn the destruction of the world by Morgoth, but there is not enough detail for it to be scary. Saruman appears worse than Sauron because he is actually talking in the book, but I can tell you, even at thirteen years of age, when I first read Akkalabeth before bed one night it was pretty darn scary. Just imagining the burning, the torture, the wrath of Eru, the downfall of the blessed men. <sigh>

Oh and Feanor is not evil, just stubborn.

Macalaure · 10-03-2006, 02:30 PM

Hmmm, categories.

Simple Bad Guys
No bad guy in Tolkien's works is just a 'simple' bad guy. Even Morgoth once strayed from the path. But if this constrains itself to the scope of LotR, then it's okay. These are the true symbols of evil.

Morgoth
Sauron
Witch King / Nazgûl (they surely used to belong into the Seduced category, but by the time of LotR and the way we meet them there, they belong to the Simple Bad Guys)
The Mouth of Sauron

The Ones Who Stray From the Path (in varying degrees)
This is a very broad category. Pretty much everything can be fitted into it. I will narrow it a bit for this reason: The ones who keep their good intentions (or think they do) but on the path to them go astray.

Saruman
Denethor
Boromir

The Seduced
They started out as good guys as well, but due to an external force that seduced them they turned to evil, but kept struggling.

Gríma
Gollum

The Exploited
These already started out from the not-so-good point, or at least had a weak spot that made them receptive. The evil seed that was inside them then was used by the real bad guys.

Ungoliant
Dunlendings
Dead Men of Dunharrow
Haradrim, Easterlings, Corsairs

The Created
Baddies that were created by bigger baddies to serve their purposes. Perhaps a sub-category of The Exploited.

Orcs
Werewolves and Wargs
Trolls

Natural Terrors
The baddies that act without a purpose, just out of themselves.

Old Man Willow
Shelob
Barrow Wights (probably started out as Exploited, while the old Angmar existed)
The Watcher in the Water
The Sackville-Bagginses
The Balrog (again someone who started out as Simple or Seduced, but in LotR he acts out of his own mind)
Smaug (the same)
Caradhras?

Where can we put Ferny or Saruman's thugs?

Thinlómien · 10-04-2006, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Where can we put Ferny or Saruman's thugs?

Natural terrors, maybe?

Volo · 10-07-2006, 12:42 PM

Had a long smile at Mac's Natural Terrors list with the The Sackville-Bagginses.

That link would be more like "Who's the most popular bad guy".

The big villian would propably be Woland from The Master and Margarita. That was far scarier than those few that are on the list and I know. But then again, Woland propably did more good than bad...

Macalaure · 10-07-2006, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Had a long smile at Mac's Natural Terrors list with the The Sackville-Bagginses.

I'm sure Bilbo would agree!

10-01-2006, 06:27 AM	#1
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Well I didn't know who you meant, I've remained blisfully unaware of her, but now I can see the similarities between the two. Meh. I was thinking, there are some particular types of bad guys in LotR (and lots of them), and for fun I've had a go at some categories, feel free to move things around: Simple Bad Guys (we don't see their potential for good) Morgoth Sauron Witch King The Ones Who Stray From the Path (in varying degrees) Saruman Denethor Grima Boromir Dead Men of Dunharrow (I know, they come good) The Exploited (used by the powers that be) Gollum Ungoliant Orcs (bit controversial this one ) Dunlendings Natural Terrors (unpredicatable, linked to nature) Old Man Willow Shelob Barrow Wights Have some fun arguing with that lot. __________________ Gordon's alive!

10-07-2006, 12:42 PM	#5
Volo Silver in My Silent Heart Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: the great beauty Posts: 1,611	Had a long smile at Mac's Natural Terrors list with the The Sackville-Bagginses. That link would be more like "Who's the most popular bad guy". The big villian would propably be Woland from The Master and Margarita. That was far scarier than those few that are on the list and I know. But then again, Woland propably did more good than bad... __________________ Fenris Wolf The EVEN NEWER Barrow-Downs Photo Page

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10-03-2006, 04:58 AM	#2
The Sixth Wizard Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Stuck under a rock in Valinor with Ar-Pharazon. Posts: 480	Curses, defeated again by those Harry Potter nerds! They usurp the spotlight even more than men!! Anyway, you guys have it completely right. You mourn the destruction of the world by Morgoth, but there is not enough detail for it to be scary. Saruman appears worse than Sauron because he is actually talking in the book, but I can tell you, even at thirteen years of age, when I first read Akkalabeth before bed one night it was pretty darn scary. Just imagining the burning, the torture, the wrath of Eru, the downfall of the blessed men. <sigh> Oh and Feanor is not evil, just stubborn.

10-03-2006, 02:30 PM	#3
Macalaure Fading Fëanorion Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: into the flood again Posts: 2,911	Hmmm, categories. Simple Bad Guys No bad guy in Tolkien's works is just a 'simple' bad guy. Even Morgoth once strayed from the path. But if this constrains itself to the scope of LotR, then it's okay. These are the true symbols of evil. Morgoth Sauron Witch King / Nazgûl (they surely used to belong into the Seduced category, but by the time of LotR and the way we meet them there, they belong to the Simple Bad Guys) The Mouth of Sauron The Ones Who Stray From the Path (in varying degrees) This is a very broad category. Pretty much everything can be fitted into it. I will narrow it a bit for this reason: The ones who keep their good intentions (or think they do) but on the path to them go astray. Saruman Denethor Boromir The Seduced They started out as good guys as well, but due to an external force that seduced them they turned to evil, but kept struggling. Gríma Gollum The Exploited These already started out from the not-so-good point, or at least had a weak spot that made them receptive. The evil seed that was inside them then was used by the real bad guys. Ungoliant Dunlendings Dead Men of Dunharrow Haradrim, Easterlings, Corsairs The Created Baddies that were created by bigger baddies to serve their purposes. Perhaps a sub-category of The Exploited. Orcs Werewolves and Wargs Trolls Natural Terrors The baddies that act without a purpose, just out of themselves. Old Man Willow Shelob Barrow Wights (probably started out as Exploited, while the old Angmar existed) The Watcher in the Water The Sackville-Bagginses The Balrog (again someone who started out as Simple or Seduced, but in LotR he acts out of his own mind) Smaug (the same) Caradhras? Where can we put Ferny or Saruman's thugs?