Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

You do realize that the fear build-up was different, right? With the Balrog, it was pretty much a surprise, while Gandalf had a good amount of time to think about the fight with the Witch-King.




No, as mentioned, Gandalf spoke of the possibility of fighting the Witch-King, and he was very grim while speaking about it.




He didn't fail to pose a threat to Gandalf at Weathertop, the reason he attacked with all of the Nazgul was that, for stealth, he and the others were weaker, and even then Gandalf just barely escaped and was held off by four Nazgul.



He wasn't driven away by Aragorn, he simply left because his work was already done. As I also mentioned, Gandalf just barely got away and was then held off by four Nazgul. If it helps, I've always seen the added demonic force as Sauron allowing him full power. Honestly, considering that Morgoth and Sauron made their kingdoms in places nobody was, and considering they never beat their enemies, the Witch-King actually has a more accomplished track record.

I think we will have to agree to disgree on the above - I am of the belief that Tolkein threw in the added demonic force for the WK so as to save his credibility of being some sort of threat to Gandalf the White, which might not have otherwise looked like the case.

If Mordor wasn't so easily infront in terms of numbers etc ahead of Gondor then I doubt if Gandalf would have been as anxious of the WK. I believe in battles of this sort the human on the Good side needs confidence to see out his full potential. This applies to the Bad side too - even the WK had in the past been shaken in confidence after the battle with Gandalf at Weathertop, & the narrow escape with Frodo's enchanted blade.

As for the Balrog encounter, the movie potrays things slightly differently in that Gandalf does not contest with it until it reaches the bridge; in the book Gandalf has already ''met his match & had been nearly destroyed'' by then after ''doing all he could'' - at this stage he did not know his nemisis but admitted it was one which never gave him such a challenge compared to anything else before (therefore including the encounter with all nine Nazgul).

Tolkein never got to show (out of choice) whether the powered-up WK had the power in him to match a Balrog, but just consider the scenario of a Balrog being defeated as easiliy as the WK was by Eowyn & Merry - impossible as it would be far too strong physically as well as through it's sorcerous armoury.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by Mansun

I think we will have to agree to disgree on the above - I am of the belief that Tolkein threw in the added demonic force for the WK so as to save his credibility of being some sort of threat to Gandalf the White, which might not have otherwise looked like the case.

Since when did you speak for everyone in the thread? Also, if Tolkien was anything with his stories, it was picky. If Tolkien was going to make that confrontation, he would make it have meaning, not just some page filler.

Originally Posted by Mansun

If Mordor wasn't so easily infront in terms of numbers etc ahead of Gondor then I doubt if Gandalf would have been as anxious of the WK. I believe in battles of this sort the human on the Good side needs confidence to see out his full potential. This applies to the Bad side too - even the WK had in the past been shaken in confidence after the battle with Gandalf at Weathertop, & the narrow escape with Frodo's enchanted blade.

Gandalf never said he was dismayed by Mordor's armies, he was grim and doubtful only when talking about him fighting the Witch-King mano-e-mano. The Witch-King wasn't shaken when fighting Gandalf, and anyone would be slighty dismayed that they almost got killed by a specific weapon to kill them. Even then, he recovered pretty quickly from that.

Originally Posted by Mansun

As for the Balrog encounter, the movie potrays things slightly differently in that Gandalf does not contest with it until it reaches the bridge; in the book Gandalf has already ''met his match & had been nearly destroyed'' by then after ''doing all he could'' - at this stage he did not know his nemisis but admitted it was one which never gave him such a challenge compared to anything else before (therefore including the encounter with all nine Nazgul).

Yes, but when Gandalf was Gandalf the White (and thus stronger than Gandalf the Grey) He doubted that he could defeat the Witch-King in one-on-one combat. Therefore, the Witch-King was not at full power at Weathertop.

Originally Posted by Mansun

Tolkein never got to show (out of choice) whether the powered-up WK had the power in him to match a Balrog, but just consider the scenario of a Balrog being defeated as easiliy as the WK was by Eowyn & Merry - impossible as it would be far too strong physically as well as through it's sorcerous armoury.

If the Balrog was stabbed in the knee by a blade specifically made to cripple and kill it, I could very well see that happening. That was the catch with the Witch-King's death: it was a surprise attack that was done by quite possibly the most stealthy race in all of Middle-Earth with a powerful blade made to kill the Witch-King. If Merry's blade had an evil opposite, the same thing could have happened to Gandalf.

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

Since when did you speak for everyone in the thread? Also, if Tolkien was anything with his stories, it was picky. If Tolkien was going to make that confrontation, he would make it have meaning, not just some page filler.



Gandalf never said he was dismayed by Mordor's armies, he was grim and doubtful only when talking about him fighting the Witch-King mano-e-mano. The Witch-King wasn't shaken when fighting Gandalf, and anyone would be slighty dismayed that they almost got killed by a specific weapon to kill them. Even then, he recovered pretty quickly from that.



Yes, but when Gandalf was Gandalf the White (and thus stronger than Gandalf the Grey) He doubted that he could defeat the Witch-King in one-on-one combat. Therefore, the Witch-King was not at full power at Weathertop.



If the Balrog was stabbed in the knee by a blade specifically made to cripple and kill it, I could very well see that happening. That was the catch with the Witch-King's death: it was a surprise attack that was done by quite possibly the most stealthy race in all of Middle-Earth with a powerful blade made to kill the Witch-King. If Merry's blade had an evil opposite, the same thing could have happened to Gandalf.

Since when did I speak for everyone??? Oh dear ......... all you have done with the above rabble is just that & for that you are out of order. A lot of this subject is down to sheer opinion, & no proof can be clearly put to one point precisely above another in some cases - that is why I said we must agree to disagree, & accept the fact that it is mainly down to one's OWN interpretation. Some will see the WK as being more formiddable, others less so.

As for the WK being shaken by the fire of Gandalf at Weathertop, I am sure somebody in an earlier post mentioned that one of Tolkein's letters or from another reliable source stated just that.

[alatar]

Let's keep in mind that we're talking about both the movie and book characters. The recent posts seem, to me, mix the two. Note that the following characters exist in both the books and the movies:

• Gandalf the Grey

• Gandalf the White

• Witch-King (pre-Morgul signal)

• Witch-King (Pelennor)

I'm getting confused as book Gandalf the Grey drives four Nazgul from Weathertop; movie Gandalf the Grey or White does not encounter any Nazgul until he and Pippin reach Minas Tirith. The Witch-King could have overestimated his own abilities; Gandalf could have underestimated his. Plus, like many superhero brawls, assume that Gandalf can easily hold his own against the 'powered up' Witch-King. Assume that Gandalf even knows this, and also knows that according to the prophecy that he himself will not slay the King of Angmar. So I guess he shouldn't have anything to fear? But the Witch-King, being on the evil side, could attack Gandalf via the hobbits, Theoden, other innocents, etc., and this thought may concern Gandalf. He may know that, regardless of the Witch-King's boasting, that the only way that Gandalf could be overcome would be for the Witch-King to make him submit, drop his staff as it were, as the WK would have taken Merry or Pip hostage.

One possibility, hopefully clearly stated.

The movie confrontation, the more I look at it, definitely has the Witch-King and Gandalf the White at least on the same level. Peter Jackson then has the Witch-King destaff the old wizard, and to that would prove that PJ's WK is more powerful than Gandalf. Though, as some say, that doesn't indicate the outcome of a battle...

And note that, in the movies, Merry's sword is not magical. My argument is that Merry's sword, when first shown to Eowyn, is noted to be dull. Narsil and Sting, both magical swords, do not require sharpening. Also, when Eowyn sees Merry's sword, she does not make any comment about it, and she has seen many a sword to be able to note something different. And Aragorn gives the swords to the hobbits on Weathertop where he casts the bundle of them on the ground. Is this the way a person handles special swords? Anyway, that's my case.

[Essex]

I'm getting confused as book Gandalf the Grey drives four Nazgul from Weathertop; movie Gandalf the Grey or White does not encounter any Nazgul until he and Pippin reach Minas Tirith. The Witch-King could have overestimated his own abilities; Gandalf could have underestimated his. Plus, like many superhero brawls, assume that Gandalf can easily hold his own against the 'powered up' Witch-King. Assume that Gandalf even knows this, and also knows that according to the prophecy that he himself will not slay the King of Angmar. So I guess he shouldn't have anything to fear? But the Witch-King, being on the evil side, could attack Gandalf via the hobbits, Theoden, other innocents, etc., and this thought may concern Gandalf. He may know that, regardless of the Witch-King's boasting, that the only way that Gandalf could be overcome would be for the Witch-King to make him submit, drop his staff as it were, as the WK would have taken Merry or Pip hostage.

But Gandalf has the body of a human and can be killed with a sword though, correct? (esp a flaming one LOL) - so he CAN be beaten, even if he IS stronger than the WK........

PS - in the weapons and warfare movie tie-in book - it states that the sword Merry uses on the Witch King is Thedoen's sword he had as a child. Why PJ wanted to do this, he only knows........

The way I approach the film is that the stuff we do not see in the movies still actually happens. ok sometimes we have some conflicts, but to me, the movie hobbits DID meet Tom Bombadil, we just didn't see it. so merry gets his sword from the barrow-wights in my mind. (he was just given an extra one by Aragorn LOL) And therefore you could also say that movie Gandalf fought off the Nazgul on weathertop too.....

PS - Movie wise, how can you convey the brilliant text of Tolkien explaining why the Witch King was defeated? I suppose we could have Gandalf mention it later, but then how would HE know?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

But Gandalf has the body of a human and can be killed with a sword though, correct? (esp a flaming one LOL) - so he CAN be beaten, even if he IS stronger than the WK........

The Balrog wasn't able to kill Gandalf; Gandalf just ran out of juice and color...

PS - in the weapons and warfare movie tie-in book - it states that the sword Merry uses on the Witch King is Thedoen's sword he had as a child. Why PJ wanted to do this, he only knows........

So, in PJ land, Theoden's play sword is from the Barrows of the North? Could we complicate the story more?

The way I approach the film is that the stuff we do not see in the movies still actually happens. ok sometimes we have some conflicts, but to me, the movie hobbits DID meet Tom Bombadil, we just didn't see it. so merry gets his sword from the barrow-wights in my mind. (he was just given an extra one by Aragorn LOL) And therefore you could also say that movie Gandalf fought off the Nazgul on weathertop too.....

Think that you may have mentioned that once or twice before . But, regarding Merry's sword, the hobbit says that it's dull, and surely the Barrow wights would have taken better care of such an important artifact.

[Essex]

From The Istari, Unfinished Tales

.....Emissaries they were from Lords of the West, the Valar, who still took counsel for the governance of Middle-earth, and when the shadow of Sauron began first to stir again took this means of resisting him. For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years......whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.

PS, re

Think that you may have mentioned that once or twice before

yeah I know - but everyone else is repeating themselves over these 330 odd posts that I thought I would too

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Since when did I speak for everyone???

You used we. It was a bad choice of words.

Originally Posted by Mansun

Oh dear ......... all you have done with the above rabble is just that & for that you are out of order.

I spoke for myself, not anyone else. All I did was provide information from the books and make a few comments. You don't have to agree with them.

Originally Posted by Mansun

A lot of this subject is down to sheer opinion, & no proof can be clearly put to one point precisely above another in some cases - that is why I said we must agree to disagree, & accept the fact that it is mainly down to one's OWN interpretation. Some will see the WK as being more formiddable, others less so.

Like I said, your was worded poorly. In the end, it does come down to people seeing the battle as one-sided or even.

Anyway, from what I summed up after reading the book, that confrontation seems to be between equals, and Gandalf showed that he was uneasy regarding the possible battle. Though the battle could have gone either way with (apparent) equal strength, it was in no way a one-sided conflict.