Tolkien's 'Smith of Wootton Major' & George MacDonald's 'Phantastes': A Comparison - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Folwren · 10-18-2006, 11:43 AM

Interesting topic, Elempi.

I have very little to say because I read both those stories some time ago and don't remember either of them very well.

However, my opinion on this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

SWoM is said to be allegorical. Is that also true of Phantastes? Are there degrees of "purposed domination by the author"?

Pop and my older sister have both read Phantastes and both like it and I am pretty sure that they both saw some sort of allegory in it, but I have to admit that it escapes me. However, I will say that I can't imagine MacDonald writing anything without some allegorical meaning to it.

Have you read Lilith, Elempi? I think Pop and my sister liked that one even better than Phantastes.

As for me, I prefer SoWM to Phantastes, so far as I recall.

Do you think that Tolkien, as well as Lewis, learned from and used some of MacDonald's writings and teachings and lessons?

-- Folwren

Lalwendë · 10-18-2006, 01:11 PM

Meant to post this a while back, after lmp asked me what I meant in another post!

Yes, Phantastes is sometimes said to be an allegorical work about the need for the human to shrug off the carnal and accept the spiritual. However I've heard otherwise (e.g. the stories are quite Jungian), and apparently MacDonald wasn't happy with those who simply said "this book is an allegory" as he claimed it was much more complex than that. Of course, MacDonald had some individualistic ideas about God and Christ, so it would not be easy to pinpoint the allegorical elements unless you knew MacDonald's philosophies (broadly, he disliked Calvinism, and predestination). I'll have to ask davem to dig it out for me and have another look.

I don't know about SoWM being allegorical. It all seems too familiar and real to me to be allegory.

littlemanpoet · 10-20-2006, 07:01 PM

I've read Lilith. I think I like Phantastes better though. It seems that maybe I got the two stories confused, and my current rereading of Phantastes is un-confusing them. Not done, so this could take time.

I too prefer SWoM to Phantastes. I don't know exactly why. I'll have to reread SWoM after rereading Phantastes to try and take a stab at it. I think Lal's sense of reality in SWoM is what I like so much, and I do find it difficult to allow for allegory there too. Force domination of the author? I don't think so. Applications? Aplenty I'm sure.

I think that Lal is correct as to the "allegory" people write of. I've also heard of Phantastes being interpreted after Freud, which is actually possible but diminishing. I'm not sure it is quite accurate to call spiritual maturation allegory, however. Bilbo matures morally in The Hobbit but nobody calls that an allegory.

10-18-2006, 01:11 PM	#2
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Meant to post this a while back, after lmp asked me what I meant in another post! Yes, Phantastes is sometimes said to be an allegorical work about the need for the human to shrug off the carnal and accept the spiritual. However I've heard otherwise (e.g. the stories are quite Jungian), and apparently MacDonald wasn't happy with those who simply said "this book is an allegory" as he claimed it was much more complex than that. Of course, MacDonald had some individualistic ideas about God and Christ, so it would not be easy to pinpoint the allegorical elements unless you knew MacDonald's philosophies (broadly, he disliked Calvinism, and predestination). I'll have to ask davem to dig it out for me and have another look. I don't know about SoWM being allegorical. It all seems too familiar and real to me to be allegory. __________________ Gordon's alive!

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10-20-2006, 07:01 PM	#3
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	I've read Lilith. I think I like Phantastes better though. It seems that maybe I got the two stories confused, and my current rereading of Phantastes is un-confusing them. Not done, so this could take time. I too prefer SWoM to Phantastes. I don't know exactly why. I'll have to reread SWoM after rereading Phantastes to try and take a stab at it. I think Lal's sense of reality in SWoM is what I like so much, and I do find it difficult to allow for allegory there too. Force domination of the author? I don't think so. Applications? Aplenty I'm sure. I think that Lal is correct as to the "allegory" people write of. I've also heard of Phantastes being interpreted after Freud, which is actually possible but diminishing. I'm not sure it is quite accurate to call spiritual maturation allegory, however. Bilbo matures morally in The Hobbit but nobody calls that an allegory.