Arcane Topic Warning: Part the Fifth

[Aiwendil]

I have to say I'm perplexed as to why Tolkien's comparison of the Dwarves with Jews is sometimes seen as possibly anti-semitic. It seems quite valid to me to compare a fictional race from Middle-earth with a real ethnic group. When the Hobbits are compared with the English (as is often done), no one suspects racism on the part of the person making the comparison.

I think that the tendency for jobs in commerce to be filled by Jews in European history, which Kuruharan has noted, may very well have had something to do with Tolkien's association of them with the Dwarves. Or maybe not; it's hard to read his mind. I don't think that this implies he was anti-semitic. Certainly, there's ample evidence that he was not anti-semitic.

I know that this is beside the point of the original topic, and I'm sorry if this leads it further astray . . .

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I think that the tendency for jobs in commerce to be filled by Jews in European history, which Kuruharan has noted, may very well have had something to do with Tolkien's association of them with the Dwarves. Or maybe not; it's hard to read his mind. I don't think that this implies he was anti-semitic. Certainly, there's ample evidence that he was not anti-semitic.

I think the issue is raised more by comparisions that use quotes such as "ever demanded a price for all that they did, whether with delight or with toil" as evidence than by historical context comparisons.

Originally Posted by Mithadan

I am certain Tolkien never intended to imply that Dwarves were similar to Jews in connection with greed, which would be highly anti-semitic.

And Mithadan says it perfectly here. In fact, I think Mithadan's post generally addresses the entire issue beautifully.

As for the origins of Dwarves and 'demanding a price,' it shouldn't be forgotten that their characterization draws heavily on Norse sagas, in which Dwarves weren't always the most pleasant or generous of characters. Durinn and Dvalin in the Hervarar saga, and Regin's scheming against Sigurd spring to mind.

On the original topic, a trading relationship would seem to develop most quickly between cultures with a similar level of technological achievement. The Dwarves had most in common with the Noldor, as the two most skilled groups in metal crafts, and I think it would be logical for a relationship of some kind to arise there first. They would have the most to offer each other.

These things the Dwarves amended in return for the one great service that Men could offer. They were tamers of beasts and had learned the mastery of horses, and many were skilled and fearless riders.

I'd place the emphasis on the phrase one great service. If trade is limited to one item, commerce might be expected to develop at a slower rate than if more types of goods and services were exchanged.

So theory portion A in particular makes quite a bit of sense.

[Raynor]

As far as I saw, there is little if any reference to dwarven greed - and requiring remuneration for services done doesn't equal greed, this is how I earn my living and I don't consider myself greedy. The dwarves were mostly related to Aule, of whom it is said that he submited all he did to Eru's will, that he did not envy the works of others and sought and gave counsel; the dwarves too exchanged their craft lore with others, such as Eol or Celebrimbor. Greed is mentioned in relation to the dwarves when they are overpowered by the Elven rings, but those were tainted by Sauron. When they contemplate the Nauglamir and the Silmaril together, a lust to possess them arises, but this again is explainable by the curse that laid on the noldorin jewel, which instilled evil feelings to the once mightiest ainu, to elves or men. In the letters, greed is not recognised as a datum for the dwarves, but, as I read it, a possible, worst case scenario.

Strangely enough, I have not received any request to clarify my meaning, although it was me who put that idea forward. I regret that my remark has caused discomfort, to those who suspected anti-semitism, or to Kuruharan. It was not my intention.

[Celuien]

Well, of course Tolkien's Dwarves are far more pleasant than their Norse ancestors, and greed only seems to rear its ugly head on occasion.

Thanks for the clarification, Raynor, and apologies for any misunderstandings on my part.

[Kuruharan]

One can conceive of Dwarves trading with the Sindar, but once the Noldor arrived trade must have lessened because the Elves of the West were quite capable of forging their own weapons and doing their own construction.

I’ve wondered about this myself. I think perhaps that an exchange of ideas may perhaps have played some role in motivating the parties to continue their contact. My guess would be they were interested in the different skill sets that the other brought to the table. There is also something to be said that there is an element of interest in having stuff that comes from someplace else. This has always been an underlying element in engaging in commerce. I think that this might have been a factor for the Elves. Even though they may not have liked the Dwarves overmuch, I think that their inherent curiosity would drive them to maintain the contact.

However, there has to have been a material side to this as well. I think that, given the environment each group lived in, the Dwarves probably served as the source of raw materials to the Elves as well as manufacturing to a certain extent. True, the Noldor were more than capable of forging their own weapons, but they had to have metal to work. While the northern Noldor under Fingolfin and Fingon had access to ample mountain ranges for mining, the western Noldor and Finrod were a bit lacking in this department. I think the Sons of Feanor and Doriath were the Dwarves’ primary trading partners. I’m not so sure about Nargothrond as I don’t remember if there is any reference to Dwarves visiting the place after it was finished. The secrecy that the Elves of Nargothrond tried to maintain leads me to believe that there probably wasn’t a whole lot (or any) contact that went on there (although I might be wrong).

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't trade have sprung up almost instantly between the Elves and the Dwarves due to mithril? Given that the only source of "truesilver" is smack in the middle of the Dwarven homeland (and not by accident, of course), and given that the Elves were in a life and death struggle with Morgoth it makes sense that they would be highly motivated to trade for something as potentially useful as mithril. The question I come to after this is would the Elves have preferred to trade for ore or completed goods? Would they have wanted to fashion their own mithril weapons and armour or would the work of the Dwarves have been sufficient...or even better....hmmmmm

It occurs to me that this could very well provide a clue as to the reason for the ongoing trade and its necessity. If the Dwarves were really the only people who could mine mithril then it makes sense that they would have a much better understanding of how to refine it and work it. Given that they are such a secretive race, it makes sense, I think, to assume that they would not divulge such important information even to trading partners (and remember how frosty relations were with the Elves even at the best of times) -- so it would make sense to me to say that the mithril armour and weapons made by the Dwarves would be better than that made by the Elves (for the first few thousand years, at least, until the Elves had a chance to become more familiar with it themselves).

[Raynor]

Would they have wanted to fashion their own mithril weapons and armour or would the work of the Dwarves have been sufficient...or even better.

Some noldor went to Eregion exactly because they learned that mithril has been discovered in Moria; they particulary made the ithildin, the starmoon, which is seen on the doors of Moria. In Late Writings, Celebrimbor is said to have equaled the art of the dwarves in using mithril.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I’ve wondered about this myself. I think perhaps that an exchange of ideas may perhaps have played some role in motivating the parties to continue their contact. My guess would be they were interested in the different skill sets that the other brought to the table. There is also something to be said that there is an element of interest in having stuff that comes from someplace else. This has always been an underlying element in engaging in commerce. I think that this might have been a factor for the Elves. Even though they may not have liked the Dwarves overmuch, I think that their inherent curiosity would drive them to maintain the contact.

Quite apart from speculation on such matters, we KNOW that the Dwarves continued a profitable trade with the Eldar after the coming of the Noldor. In passages pertaining to Caranthir's establishment of his fiefdom in Thargelion, we're told that he became wealthy, through his contact and trade with the Dwarves of Nogrod. I believe it also goes on to say, as Kuru speculates, that there was no particular love of the two races, but it was a profitable relationship- implying a good deal of trade.