Arcane Topic Warning: Part the Fifth

[Raynor]

As far as I saw, there is little if any reference to dwarven greed - and requiring remuneration for services done doesn't equal greed, this is how I earn my living and I don't consider myself greedy. The dwarves were mostly related to Aule, of whom it is said that he submited all he did to Eru's will, that he did not envy the works of others and sought and gave counsel; the dwarves too exchanged their craft lore with others, such as Eol or Celebrimbor. Greed is mentioned in relation to the dwarves when they are overpowered by the Elven rings, but those were tainted by Sauron. When they contemplate the Nauglamir and the Silmaril together, a lust to possess them arises, but this again is explainable by the curse that laid on the noldorin jewel, which instilled evil feelings to the once mightiest ainu, to elves or men. In the letters, greed is not recognised as a datum for the dwarves, but, as I read it, a possible, worst case scenario.

Strangely enough, I have not received any request to clarify my meaning, although it was me who put that idea forward. I regret that my remark has caused discomfort, to those who suspected anti-semitism, or to Kuruharan. It was not my intention.

[Celuien]

Well, of course Tolkien's Dwarves are far more pleasant than their Norse ancestors, and greed only seems to rear its ugly head on occasion.

Thanks for the clarification, Raynor, and apologies for any misunderstandings on my part.

[Kuruharan]

One can conceive of Dwarves trading with the Sindar, but once the Noldor arrived trade must have lessened because the Elves of the West were quite capable of forging their own weapons and doing their own construction.

I’ve wondered about this myself. I think perhaps that an exchange of ideas may perhaps have played some role in motivating the parties to continue their contact. My guess would be they were interested in the different skill sets that the other brought to the table. There is also something to be said that there is an element of interest in having stuff that comes from someplace else. This has always been an underlying element in engaging in commerce. I think that this might have been a factor for the Elves. Even though they may not have liked the Dwarves overmuch, I think that their inherent curiosity would drive them to maintain the contact.

However, there has to have been a material side to this as well. I think that, given the environment each group lived in, the Dwarves probably served as the source of raw materials to the Elves as well as manufacturing to a certain extent. True, the Noldor were more than capable of forging their own weapons, but they had to have metal to work. While the northern Noldor under Fingolfin and Fingon had access to ample mountain ranges for mining, the western Noldor and Finrod were a bit lacking in this department. I think the Sons of Feanor and Doriath were the Dwarves’ primary trading partners. I’m not so sure about Nargothrond as I don’t remember if there is any reference to Dwarves visiting the place after it was finished. The secrecy that the Elves of Nargothrond tried to maintain leads me to believe that there probably wasn’t a whole lot (or any) contact that went on there (although I might be wrong).

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't trade have sprung up almost instantly between the Elves and the Dwarves due to mithril? Given that the only source of "truesilver" is smack in the middle of the Dwarven homeland (and not by accident, of course), and given that the Elves were in a life and death struggle with Morgoth it makes sense that they would be highly motivated to trade for something as potentially useful as mithril. The question I come to after this is would the Elves have preferred to trade for ore or completed goods? Would they have wanted to fashion their own mithril weapons and armour or would the work of the Dwarves have been sufficient...or even better....hmmmmm

It occurs to me that this could very well provide a clue as to the reason for the ongoing trade and its necessity. If the Dwarves were really the only people who could mine mithril then it makes sense that they would have a much better understanding of how to refine it and work it. Given that they are such a secretive race, it makes sense, I think, to assume that they would not divulge such important information even to trading partners (and remember how frosty relations were with the Elves even at the best of times) -- so it would make sense to me to say that the mithril armour and weapons made by the Dwarves would be better than that made by the Elves (for the first few thousand years, at least, until the Elves had a chance to become more familiar with it themselves).

[Raynor]

Would they have wanted to fashion their own mithril weapons and armour or would the work of the Dwarves have been sufficient...or even better.

Some noldor went to Eregion exactly because they learned that mithril has been discovered in Moria; they particulary made the ithildin, the starmoon, which is seen on the doors of Moria. In Late Writings, Celebrimbor is said to have equaled the art of the dwarves in using mithril.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Some noldor went to Eregion exactly because they learned that mithril has been discovered in Moria; they particulary made the ithildin, the starmoon, which is seen on the doors of Moria. In Late Writings, Celebrimbor is said to have equaled the art of the dwarves in using mithril.

Well that cinches it: if the height of Elvish mithril crafting went no furher than equalling the Dwarves then finished goods of mithril would have formed an important part, if not the most important part, of their trade. Think of it: one Elf can do it, but all (or at least a lot) of Dwarves can do it. If you're trying to equip an army it would take a long time for just one guy to make everything you need, even if it's Celebrimbor, but a raft of Dwarves hammering way would do the job in no time.

As to what the Elves would trade in return, just look at the things we see them using and/or referred to as making in LotR: rope, boats, glasswares, wood-crafts, gems, weaving, clothes, cloth, leather-goods, jewellry, and on. Why would a Dwarf who has a mithril sword bother trading that for wood so he can carve a table when he would trade the sword for 50 Elvish-made tables?

And there's other things the Elves could trade: technology and knowledge...

Elf: If you give me that mithril sword I'll show you how to make a torch that never goes out.

Dwarf: Throw in some tips on how to kill trolls and it's a deal.

Elf: Done and done!

[Mithadan]

Mithril would explain things in the Second and Third Ages, and indeed I conceded the likilhood of trade to and from Khazad Dum. But Kuruharan's thesis and the section he quotes is that the Dwarves traded primarily for food and livestock which they could not grow or maintain underground. Beleriand was a long ways away from Khazad Dum, probably too far to transport crops. No doubt the Longbeards traded locally, but trade to Beleriand seems a bit of a stretch, particularly at wartime.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I’ve wondered about this myself. I think perhaps that an exchange of ideas may perhaps have played some role in motivating the parties to continue their contact. My guess would be they were interested in the different skill sets that the other brought to the table. There is also something to be said that there is an element of interest in having stuff that comes from someplace else. This has always been an underlying element in engaging in commerce. I think that this might have been a factor for the Elves. Even though they may not have liked the Dwarves overmuch, I think that their inherent curiosity would drive them to maintain the contact.

Quite apart from speculation on such matters, we KNOW that the Dwarves continued a profitable trade with the Eldar after the coming of the Noldor. In passages pertaining to Caranthir's establishment of his fiefdom in Thargelion, we're told that he became wealthy, through his contact and trade with the Dwarves of Nogrod. I believe it also goes on to say, as Kuru speculates, that there was no particular love of the two races, but it was a profitable relationship- implying a good deal of trade.