Did Saruman Believe He Could Master The One Ring?

[Boromir88]

phantom it's good to see ya back here for a little bit. I seriously was beginning to go through withdrawal.

I like the angle you approach this from. I'll still take Gandalf's advice in that over time the Ring would dominate and control you...aye even Tolkien said that in the one moment before the Cracks of Doom, the Ring's influence is at it's greatest and no one had the strength of will to resist it. But, I like the alternative perspective you have created, it was interesting and insightful to read.

Of course the Ring isn't this all corrupting force, if someone had the right mindset, and perhaps knew more about the Ring, they would be able to at least resist and hold off it's proddings for a while (I think that Boromir did this for a rather long period of time). Also another question is whether the Ring would really want to be in the possession of that individual. For example, what would the Ring want to do in the possession of a fox for? How is that going to help it achieve it's goal? How will that help Sauron? So, also I think there is a certain selectiveness about the Ring, it goes after the individuals it feels it can get a grasp over (Boromir and Gollum for example).

Now onto Saruman...ahh Saruman a truly interesting villain he is.

Did Saruman Believe He Could Master The One Ring?

I'd say so:

"We may join with that Power. It would be wise, Gandalf. There is hope that way. Its victory is at hand; and there will be rich reward for those that aided it. As the Power grows, its proved friends will also grow; and the Wise, such as you and I, may with patience come at last to direct its courses, to control it. We can bid our time, we can keep our thoughts in our hearts, deploring maybe evils done by the way, but approving the high and ultimate purpose: Knowledge, Rule, Order; all the things that we have so far striven in vain to accomplish, hindered rather than helped by our weak or idle friends. There need not be, there would not be any real change in our designs, only in our means."
[...]
"And why not Gandalf?" he whispered. "Why not? The Ruling Ring? If we could cammand that then the Power would pass to us...~The Council of Elrond

Saruman really started this process of wanting to 'ape' Sauron, he wanted in essense to be Sauron...and be the knew 'Ruler.' He wanted the power and Sauron knew what Saruman was up to:

But they shall help to rebuild Isengard which they have wantonly destroyed, and that shall be Sauron's, and there his lieutenant shall dwell: not Saruman, but one more worthy of trust.~The Black Gate Opens

Or, a third alternative: Did Saruman intend to "dissect" the Ring in order to use the knowledge of it to forge a new ring of his own creation?

That may also be a possibility. Certainly I think if Saruman was unable to actually get possession of the Ring he was attempting to create his own ring of power:

He wore a ring on his finger and it was at one time rumoured that he had come near the secret of their making~Home VII: Treason of Isengard

The problem with this quote is that, in the final publication of LOTR, only 'He wore a ring on his finger' is written, the rest of it Tolkien removed, as the Treason of Isengard was an earlier draft. But, also this appears in The Foreward of LOTR:

The real war does not resemble the legendary war in its process or its conclusion. If it had inspired or directed the development of the legend, then certainly the Ring would have been seized and used against Sauron; he would not have been annihilated but enslaved, and Barad-dur would not have been destroyed but occupied. Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth.

Now, this is Tolkien explaining why he didn't feel like the War in LOTR, was like any of the 'Real Wars,' but if we take this 'if it was like the real wars scenario' than we can see that Saruman was studying into ring-lore and was trying to figure out how to create his own ring of power. But, he had some 'missing links in his study' and supposedly only Mordor held those missing links to Saruman creating a true Ring of Power...as in one that could be like Sauron's.

[Mithadan]

I agree that there is no doubt Saruman thought he could master the Ring. A related question is could he have mastered it and how fast? Clearly Sauron was not alarmed when he believed that Saruman had secured the Ring. Look at his response when Pippin is revealed in the Palantir:

Tell Saruman this dainty is notfor him. I will send for it at once.

And then, of all things, Sauron laughs! He was not truly alarmed! Sauron clearly believed that Saruman could not claim the Ring for himself and control it, at least not quickly. To recover it, he sent one Nazgul. Although Gandalf believed that Saruman and Orthanc might have the power to resist a Nazgul, Sauron seemed to think a Nazgul was enough to coerce Saruman with the Ring!

The answer here seems to rest in the fact that it would take time to learn to use the Ring. I am trying unsuccessfully to find the reference but am unable to. Somewhere, Gandalf states that after Frodo claimed the Ring in the Cracks of Doom, if it had not been destroyed the Nazgul would likely have feigned obeiscence to Frodo only to later seize the Ring or bring Frodo to Sauron. Frodo could not learn to control the Ring rapidly. Even Saruman would need some time to learn the use and secrets of the Ring. But what of the principle of the Ring giving its wearer power in proportion to the wearer's stature? If this is the case, Saruman's power with the Ring, particularly given his study of the matter, should have given him significant power. There seems to be a disconnect here. Shouldn't Sauron have been much more concerned?

[Mister Underhill]

I interpret the "dainty" line to mean the Hobbit, himself, not the Ring. Saruman, a former confidant of Gandalf and the White Council with some insight into their mindset and methods, might have some inkling that a Hobbit of the Fellowship would bear the Ring and thus have some hope of capturing the Ring-bearer with his raiding party. Sauron, on the other hand, knowing that the Ring had almost certainly reached Rivendell, would be likely to presume that someone there -- Gandalf or Elrond, probably -- had taken possession of it. Still, there's nothing like a long, slow "discussion" with a Hobbit who might have inside info, perhaps followed by nice dinner with your special guest (simmered in butter and seasoned, mayhap).

[Mithadan]

Then why refer to the "dainty" as "it"?

[Mister Underhill]

The same dehumanizing impulse that leads the predator to view his prey as an "it", the way Gollum does with Bilbo: "Is it nice, my preciousss? Is it juicy? Is it scrumptiously crunchable?"

[Mithadan]

OK let's review what Sauron knew and what Tolkien, directly or indirectly, implies.

Sauron knew the Ring, carried by Frodo, reached Rivendell. He probably knew through spies that Frodo did not return to the Shire, though this is speculation. He knows Gandalf reached Caradhras after Gandalf conjures a fire. He knows a group passes through Moria and that the group includes Hobbits because the Orcs of Moria, whether they were free agents or not (unlikely) would pass this information on to the Mordor Orcs. He knows the Fellowship reaches Lorien. He is actively hunting for it when the Fellowship leaves and his Orcs have specific instructions to capture and not loot Hobbits. Grishnakh apparently knows about the Ring and tries to find it on Merry and Pippin. Sauron at the very least suspected that Frodo was still bearing the Ring.

Now, what does Tolkien imply? He makes much of the fact that Pippin revealed he was a Hobbit but not his name and was not questioned by Sauron about the Fellowship or the location of the Ring. Sauron was so excited he forgot to ask these questions. So excited about a Hobbit? No. He thought Saruman had found the Ring. He was sending for "it". He likely assumed that Saruman was revealing to him that he had captured the Ring a Hobbit (Frodo) by torturing him and forcing him to face the Red Eye. Or He may have believed Saruman was merely having some fun with his prisoner. I would be willing to reach and accept the concept that Sauron may have believed Saruman was still loyal, though I doubt Sauron would so lack the signature paranoia of dictators. This could explain why he sent only one Nazgul. But I am convinced that Sauron thought Saruman had the Ring.

[Boromir88]

I can see Mr. Underhill's side of the argument. If we look at the quote in full:

'Then suddenly he seemed to see me, and he laughed at me. It was cruel. It was like being stabbed with knives. I struggled. But he said: "Wait a moment! We shall meet again soon. Tell Saruman that this dainty is not for him. I will send for it at once. Do you understand? Say just that!"~The Palantir

Before this moment Pippin tells Sauron that he's a Hobbit. What's interesting is that I don't think Sauron ever seen a Hobbit before this...he hadn't even heard of them until Gollum mentioned them. So, when Sauron comes to see Pippin, he's taken back and laughs. Then after he has his laughs for a while...Wait a moment! (something just came to him that is important) We shall meet again soon.. Sauron sees there is some importance that he might beable to get from this 'hobbit.'

I can further understand Mr. Underhill's argument as Sauron referring to Pippin as 'dainty' (something delectable, delicate...etc) and further dehumanizing him referring to Pippin as 'it,' because when Sauron first sees a hobbit he is filled with laughter...as in 'How is this pathetic creature going to harm me.'

Also, when Pippin is first recovering from the encounter with Sauron he mistakes Gandalf for Saruman:

'It is not for you, Saruman!' he cried in a shrill and toneless voice,' shrinking away from Gandalf. 'I will send for it at once. Do you understand? Say just that!'~Voice of Saruman

Pippin mistakes Gandalf for Saruman and shrinks away from him. Now Pippin is in a state of shock at this time, but either:

1) Sauron convinced Pippin that he had something valuable Sauron wanted (and hence Saruman had).

2) Pippin was reacting to what Sauron told him, and shrinks away from Saruman (well whom he believes to be Saruman), and reiterates Sauron's words 'It (or Pippin/he) is not for you, Saruman!'
Mithadan, if we take into account that he only wanted to send one Nazgul to go to Isengard, than I don't think Sauron thought he was going to get the Ring. You may be right, maybe Sauron did not know at this time that Saruman had planned to betray him (eventhough if Grishnakh did say 'Saruman is a fool: a dirty, treacerous fool, but the Eye is on him.'...there still could be some question as to whether Sauron knew what Saruman's plans were at this time. Though Sauron was definitely distrustful of him by this time, when he encounters Pippin in the Palantir). I would think though that if Sauron believed Pippin had the Ring...therefor Saruman had it, wouldn't it be more important to Sauron than just sending one Nazgul? I mean all 9 of them together failed to get the Ring, so I don't know how much faith Sauron would have in sending just one Nazgul into Isengard to get the Ring.

I guess another possibility could be that Sauron believed Saruman had the Ring, and since he had the Hobbit with him, it would prove useful to get both of them (maybe for information as far as what the 'West' was planning?) But, still I think if Sauron believed Saruman had a ring the situation would be more urgent than merely sending 1 Nazgul to go get it...even if Sauron believed Saruman was still his 'servant.'