The treachery of the Valar - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

CaptainofDespair · 10-26-2006, 06:55 PM

Hmm. This is an interesting idea.

Perhaps the Valar, or Eru, only wanted the Elves to know when the time was right. And with the way the Elves acted/would act over that whole Silmaril debacle (anger seemingly in their blood), it's quite understandable to withhold such information from them. As Mithadan suggested, the Elves might be quite 'miffed'. Why give them so long a time to let that grow?

arcticstorm · 10-26-2006, 07:07 PM

There is yet another possibility.

If I recall correctly, the Valar longed for the day when the children of Illuvitar, elves and men, would live in Arda, but as can be seen in the incident with Aule, the Valar themselves got impatient.

Many times when a little child knows that they have a baby sibling on the way they constantly wonder when the child will be born. The Valar may have realized that if they themselves, got impatient, how much more would the elves get impatient for the coming of their brothers, so-to-speak. And, because even the Valar did not know when, they probably realized that the eldar would be constantly wondering and maybe even asking about the when in hopeful expectation and they would not have an answer. The ten thousand year wait could very easily make the elves disbelieve the Valar's promise that men would come, and thus their trust in the Valar could have been shaken in that way.

Macalaure · 10-27-2006, 03:13 AM

I think it's interesting that the quote says Manwë had not revealed it to them, not the Valar had not. We know that Manwë had the deepest understanding of the Music of the Ainur of all Valar. The Elves learned much from each of them, maybe it was understood as Manwë's 'job' to teach the Elves about subtleties of the Music. In this case there was no necessity to reach a decision for the Valar not to tell them, and it was up to Manwë what to reveal and what not to, just like it was probably up to Aulë what to reveal about, say, metallurgy.

I agree that it was a misjudgement of him to withhold this information. The reason for the Elves' uneasiness about the Secondborn was that Melkor told them. Who knows what exactly he said? I don't think there would have been reason for mistrust had Manwë taught them at times.

So why didn't he? It is said Manwë was wholly good, so he must have had a good reason and no crooked second thought. Maybe it's just not so easy to teach about the Music and to understand what is taught? It's been a design of an extremely high subtlety after all and even the Valar don't know everything about it. This might sound silly, but: maybe ten thousand years weren't enough for Manwë to get to the Third Theme?

the phantom · 10-27-2006, 03:31 AM

Quote:

It is said Manwë was wholly good, so he must have had a good reason

Say rather that Manwe had a well-intentioned reason. Even someone wholly good makes mistakes and does dumb things, so perhaps his reason was not a good reason. If there was a mistake in judgement involved it might have been a very stupid reason, though as I said before, well meaning.

Macalaure · 10-29-2006, 01:30 AM

That is what I meant. Thanks for the clarification.

Fordim Hedgethistle · 10-29-2006, 04:42 AM

Could the reason be that it was for Elves' own good? The Elves, being such confounded curious beings, always wanting to go meet things, talk and sing with them, and generally find out about the world, might have taken off for M-E to go looking for these Men. And we all know what happened when the Elves took off for M-E eventually...

Another point is simply that created beings are not "supposed" to know the future. Prophecy is one thing -- it's a mystical-myterious look forward through mortal agency -- but hearing about something that will happen from the word of God (or gods) is altogether different! Absolutely certain foreknowledge is the atomic weapon of philosophical/moral conundrums. I have enough trouble making sense of today and yesterday without having to worry about how tomorrow fits into the picture! The uncertainty of the future is a necessary precondition for free-will and its operation in moral choice.

(I also like Durelin's joke theory -- wouldn't curunir have been just SOO impossibly smug about it all, though?)

10-26-2006, 07:07 PM	#2
arcticstorm Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Johnson Bible College: Knoxville, TN Posts: 464	There is yet another possibility. If I recall correctly, the Valar longed for the day when the children of Illuvitar, elves and men, would live in Arda, but as can be seen in the incident with Aule, the Valar themselves got impatient. Many times when a little child knows that they have a baby sibling on the way they constantly wonder when the child will be born. The Valar may have realized that if they themselves, got impatient, how much more would the elves get impatient for the coming of their brothers, so-to-speak. And, because even the Valar did not know when, they probably realized that the eldar would be constantly wondering and maybe even asking about the when in hopeful expectation and they would not have an answer. The ten thousand year wait could very easily make the elves disbelieve the Valar's promise that men would come, and thus their trust in the Valar could have been shaken in that way. Last edited by arcticstorm; 10-26-2006 at 07:09 PM. Reason: typo

10-29-2006, 04:42 AM	#6
Fordim Hedgethistle Gibbering Gibbet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Beyond cloud nine Posts: 1,844	Could the reason be that it was for Elves' own good? The Elves, being such confounded curious beings, always wanting to go meet things, talk and sing with them, and generally find out about the world, might have taken off for M-E to go looking for these Men. And we all know what happened when the Elves took off for M-E eventually... Another point is simply that created beings are not "supposed" to know the future. Prophecy is one thing -- it's a mystical-myterious look forward through mortal agency -- but hearing about something that will happen from the word of God (or gods) is altogether different! Absolutely certain foreknowledge is the atomic weapon of philosophical/moral conundrums. I have enough trouble making sense of today and yesterday without having to worry about how tomorrow fits into the picture! The uncertainty of the future is a necessary precondition for free-will and its operation in moral choice. (I also like Durelin's joke theory -- wouldn't curunir have been just SOO impossibly smug about it all, though?) __________________ Scribbling scrabbling.

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10-26-2006, 06:55 PM	#1
CaptainofDespair Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 413	Hmm. This is an interesting idea. Perhaps the Valar, or Eru, only wanted the Elves to know when the time was right. And with the way the Elves acted/would act over that whole Silmaril debacle (anger seemingly in their blood), it's quite understandable to withhold such information from them. As Mithadan suggested, the Elves might be quite 'miffed'. Why give them so long a time to let that grow?

10-27-2006, 03:13 AM	#3
Macalaure Fading Fëanorion Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: into the flood again Posts: 2,911	I think it's interesting that the quote says Manwë had not revealed it to them, not the Valar had not. We know that Manwë had the deepest understanding of the Music of the Ainur of all Valar. The Elves learned much from each of them, maybe it was understood as Manwë's 'job' to teach the Elves about subtleties of the Music. In this case there was no necessity to reach a decision for the Valar not to tell them, and it was up to Manwë what to reveal and what not to, just like it was probably up to Aulë what to reveal about, say, metallurgy. I agree that it was a misjudgement of him to withhold this information. The reason for the Elves' uneasiness about the Secondborn was that Melkor told them. Who knows what exactly he said? I don't think there would have been reason for mistrust had Manwë taught them at times. So why didn't he? It is said Manwë was wholly good, so he must have had a good reason and no crooked second thought. Maybe it's just not so easy to teach about the Music and to understand what is taught? It's been a design of an extremely high subtlety after all and even the Valar don't know everything about it. This might sound silly, but: maybe ten thousand years weren't enough for Manwë to get to the Third Theme?

10-29-2006, 01:30 AM	#5
Macalaure Fading Fëanorion Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: into the flood again Posts: 2,911	That is what I meant. Thanks for the clarification.