Bombadil's brooch - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Alcuin · 11-01-2006, 02:01 PM

Thank you, Raynor. I look forward to participating with you and so many other excellent denizens of the Barrow-Downs.

I suspect that hiding in the barrows was a necessity of life-or-death. In such straits, the Dúnedain would have been foolish to forego the barrows as strongholds, whether they were ancient (from the First Age Edain and their kinsfolk who remained in Eriador) or newer (from burials of the Dúnedain in the Third Age). In any case, Lord of the Rings is our source for this citation.

Raynor · 11-01-2006, 02:15 PM

It seems to me that there were other buildings in/around Tyrn Gorthad, which could have been the actual refuge places, besides the ancient graves:

Quote:

Originally Posted by In the house of Tom Bombadil, FotR

[The hobbits] heard of the Great Barrows, and the green mounds, and the stone-rings upon the hills and in the hollows among the hills... Green walls and white walls rose. There were fortresses on the heights. Kings of little kingdoms fought together, and the young Sun shone like fire on the red metal of their new and greedy swords. There was victory and defeat; and towers fell, fortresses were burned, and flames went up into the sky.

Alcuin · 11-01-2006, 02:40 PM

I see your point, Raynor, but I am still inclined to believe that the Dúnedain were driven to the barrows, which were natural defensive positions because of their partially buried positions, their sturdy stone structures, and their relative inaccessibility. The passage you cite says that the “towers fell, [and the] fortresses were burned,” which is exactly what I think happened during the war of III 1409.

If they were like barrows in the British Islands, anyone entering the Dúnedain or Edain barrows would have to duck down to enter through a narrow passage that opened into a space that permitted anyone inside to stand on either side of the tunnel, allowing defenders considerable advantage.

Finally, we should consider whether the soldiers of Angmar and their commanders would immediately think to check the graves of the Dúnedain while they were trying to flush out and hunt down survivors: the folk of Angmar were, after all, likely worshipping either a Morgul-lord (the Witch-king) or his Master (Sauron), both notorious necromancers, so to them graves probably implied necromancy and thus places by all means to be avoided; while to the Dúnedain they were still “clean” places (before the arrival of the barrow-wights about III 1636, when the lands around the tombs were deserted because of the death toll exacted by the Great Plague).

Raynor · 11-01-2006, 03:12 PM

I don't think that the barrows enjoyed a relative inaccessibility. Hammond and Scull, in their comments say that:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Old Forest, "the Barrow-downs", page 122, LotR Reader's Companion

In Nomenclature, Tolkien describes the Barrow-downs as "low, treeless hills on which there were many "barrows", sc. tumuli and other prehistoric grave-mounds".

Then again, I have zero military experience, so you may be right. Hammond quotes Shippey saying that Tolkien must have seen barrows in person, including the famous Wayland's Smithy, which was fifteeen miles from Tolkien's study.
I also think that the servants of Sauron/Witch-king would have wasted no time in searching the mounds themselves, as a blasphemy, as I believe they had little if any fear of necromancy (and they might have also known that necromancy was a no-no for their enemies). Imo, the dunedain weren't hiding in the barrows, nor would they have used them as defensive positions (I believe in Vietnam one would just smoke them out).

Alcuin · 11-01-2006, 04:03 PM

Maybe you’re right, Raynor, but your alternative is that the Dúnedain fortifications in the barrow-downs and their defenders survived the assault of Angmar and its troops. If that was the case, why then would the “remnant of the faithful among the Dúnedain of Cardolan [hold] out in Tyrn Gorthad (the Barrowdowns), or take refuge in the [Old] Forest”? I think you are arguing that fortifications in the Barrow-Downs survived; why then would there be only a “remnant of … the Dúnedain” at the end of the war remaining in Cardolan, and why on earth would they flee their prepared military positions in the Barrow-Downs for the Forest right next door? They should have stayed in their fortifications, safe, secure, with victuals and whatever pleasures of life they salvaged before their outlying homes and farms were overrun and destroyed.

I think that had the military fortifications survived the invasion, then this passage does not make sense: “A remnant of the faithful among the Dúnedain of Cardolan also held out in Tyrn Gorthad (the Barrowdowns), or took refuge in the Forest behind.” To me that implies that the attack stalled in western Cardolan, because while Rhudaur is occupied after the war and the description of Cardolan suggests it was ravaged along with its castles and fortified towns, but there is no mention of destruction in Arthedain, which was just north of the Great Road. Since we know that Angmar was repulsed by Elves from Lindon and reinforcements called by Elrond from Lórien, I think that the invasion force stalled in northwestern Cardolan: it is likely that it did not long occupy that region, and that it either retreated to Rhudaur or was destroyed. I don’t think the leaders of Angmar had time to desecrate the tombs of the barrow-downs; however, they learned that they existed, and of what military importance they could be: hence the infestation of barrow-wights sent over 200 years later.

As for “smoking them out,” I believe American and South Vietnamese forces used chemical grenades and explosives against Viet Cong tunnels during the 1960s and early ’70s. These efforts were largely unsuccessful: in the past decade, the government of Vietnam has opened part of its extensive tunnel-and-bunker system to foreign visitors. Americans in particular have been both surprised and impressed with its enormous size (hundreds if not thousands of miles, apparently), the complexity of the underground facilities (hospitals, command posts, storage and munitions depots, barracks, kitchens, machine and repair shops, communications, and even electric generators in some instances), and their ingenious defenses (including water barriers and traps, secret entrances behind secret entrances, defensive geometry, and even defenses against fire – and smoke!).

The only means the soldiers of Angmar would have to accomplish this would be to light a fire outside and try to fan the smoke into the barrow, which could have been countered reasonably well by placing a wet blanket across the entrance. Because they were covered in part by earth, the barrows did not burn, so you could not “smoke out” defenders as you would in a partially wooden structure like a castle, where you could set fire to the wood in the building and force the people inside (and above the burning) to come out and take their chances or suffocate.

Thinlómien · 11-02-2006, 07:16 AM

I've never imagined Tom to have any relation with the woman who owned the brooch. When Tom takes the brooch and recalls then past, it has never occured that Tom would have had a close relationship with its bearer. Maybe he was just speculating in the manner of "she who once bore this must have been beautiful" and the sadness comes from the passing away of the dúnedain, not of a single woman. Or maybe Tom knew who the woman was, but didn't know her personally (eg. had seen her somewhere) or then he, holding the brooch, got a "vision" of its bearer (thus, again, the sadness is for the people, not for one person). My picture of the events has always been a mixture of the first and the third options.

Now I honeslty don't know do I think that way anymore, because the way it's presented, why indeed Tom could have not known the woman? Well, anyway, I thought I'd bring this out. But in any case I hope arcticstorm's theory was not seriously made...

Raynor · 11-02-2006, 09:32 AM

Maybe whatever fortifications were in place weren't enough for all the dunedain, in terms of strength or space of accomodation; in some circumstances a forest could provide a better cover than a fixed position, and some of the elder edain used forests as cover during the first age, IIRC. For the downs themselves, I don't think that, individually, they were sophisticated enough to protect their inhabitants in large numbers and for a long time against attempts to draw them out, it just wasn't what they were built for. And, to return to Tom Bombabil's words, it seems that the only times the tombs were disturbed was when the wights entered them.

Quote:

There was victory and defeat; and towers fell, fortresses were burned, and flames went up into the sky. Gold was piled on the biers of dead kings and queens; and mounds covered them, and the stone doors were shut; and the grass grew over all. Sheep walked for a while biting the grass, but soon the hills were empty again. A shadow came out of dark places far away, and the bones were stirred in the mounds. Barrow-wights walked in the hollow places with a clink of rings on cold fingers, and gold chains in the wind.

Edit:
It has also occured to me that, besides being unable to counter beyond a short term, attempts to "smoke 'em out", the graves could also be subject to flooding; and unless they are made of Orthanc-hard stone, they can be penetrated from above, sides, or one could simply reinforce the entrance, burry the dunedain for good, and forget about them. After all, what the drugs say about them, that they eat stone, shouldn't be taken literally

Edit II:
I just remembered the referrence in The Hobbit, Over Hill and Under Hill, that orcs always delighted in wheels, engines and explosives. I guess it would have been really fun for them to implode barrow after barrow

11-02-2006, 07:16 AM	#6
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	I've never imagined Tom to have any relation with the woman who owned the brooch. When Tom takes the brooch and recalls then past, it has never occured that Tom would have had a close relationship with its bearer. Maybe he was just speculating in the manner of "she who once bore this must have been beautiful" and the sadness comes from the passing away of the dúnedain, not of a single woman. Or maybe Tom knew who the woman was, but didn't know her personally (eg. had seen her somewhere) or then he, holding the brooch, got a "vision" of its bearer (thus, again, the sadness is for the people, not for one person). My picture of the events has always been a mixture of the first and the third options. Now I honeslty don't know do I think that way anymore, because the way it's presented, why indeed Tom could have not known the woman? Well, anyway, I thought I'd bring this out. But in any case I hope arcticstorm's theory was not seriously made... __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

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11-01-2006, 02:01 PM	#1
Alcuin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Nurn Posts: 73	Thank you, Raynor. I look forward to participating with you and so many other excellent denizens of the Barrow-Downs. I suspect that hiding in the barrows was a necessity of life-or-death. In such straits, the Dúnedain would have been foolish to forego the barrows as strongholds, whether they were ancient (from the First Age Edain and their kinsfolk who remained in Eriador) or newer (from burials of the Dúnedain in the Third Age). In any case, Lord of the Rings is our source for this citation.

11-01-2006, 02:40 PM	#3
Alcuin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Nurn Posts: 73	I see your point, Raynor, but I am still inclined to believe that the Dúnedain were driven to the barrows, which were natural defensive positions because of their partially buried positions, their sturdy stone structures, and their relative inaccessibility. The passage you cite says that the “towers fell, [and the] fortresses were burned,” which is exactly what I think happened during the war of III 1409. If they were like barrows in the British Islands, anyone entering the Dúnedain or Edain barrows would have to duck down to enter through a narrow passage that opened into a space that permitted anyone inside to stand on either side of the tunnel, allowing defenders considerable advantage. Finally, we should consider whether the soldiers of Angmar and their commanders would immediately think to check the graves of the Dúnedain while they were trying to flush out and hunt down survivors: the folk of Angmar were, after all, likely worshipping either a Morgul-lord (the Witch-king) or his Master (Sauron), both notorious necromancers, so to them graves probably implied necromancy and thus places by all means to be avoided; while to the Dúnedain they were still “clean” places (before the arrival of the barrow-wights about III 1636, when the lands around the tombs were deserted because of the death toll exacted by the Great Plague).

11-01-2006, 04:03 PM	#5
Alcuin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Nurn Posts: 73	Maybe you’re right, Raynor, but your alternative is that the Dúnedain fortifications in the barrow-downs and their defenders survived the assault of Angmar and its troops. If that was the case, why then would the “remnant of the faithful among the Dúnedain of Cardolan [hold] out in Tyrn Gorthad (the Barrowdowns), or take refuge in the [Old] Forest”? I think you are arguing that fortifications in the Barrow-Downs survived; why then would there be only a “remnant of … the Dúnedain” at the end of the war remaining in Cardolan, and why on earth would they flee their prepared military positions in the Barrow-Downs for the Forest right next door? They should have stayed in their fortifications, safe, secure, with victuals and whatever pleasures of life they salvaged before their outlying homes and farms were overrun and destroyed. I think that had the military fortifications survived the invasion, then this passage does not make sense: “A remnant of the faithful among the Dúnedain of Cardolan also held out in Tyrn Gorthad (the Barrowdowns), or took refuge in the Forest behind.” To me that implies that the attack stalled in western Cardolan, because while Rhudaur is occupied after the war and the description of Cardolan suggests it was ravaged along with its castles and fortified towns, but there is no mention of destruction in Arthedain, which was just north of the Great Road. Since we know that Angmar was repulsed by Elves from Lindon and reinforcements called by Elrond from Lórien, I think that the invasion force stalled in northwestern Cardolan: it is likely that it did not long occupy that region, and that it either retreated to Rhudaur or was destroyed. I don’t think the leaders of Angmar had time to desecrate the tombs of the barrow-downs; however, they learned that they existed, and of what military importance they could be: hence the infestation of barrow-wights sent over 200 years later. As for “smoking them out,” I believe American and South Vietnamese forces used chemical grenades and explosives against Viet Cong tunnels during the 1960s and early ’70s. These efforts were largely unsuccessful: in the past decade, the government of Vietnam has opened part of its extensive tunnel-and-bunker system to foreign visitors. Americans in particular have been both surprised and impressed with its enormous size (hundreds if not thousands of miles, apparently), the complexity of the underground facilities (hospitals, command posts, storage and munitions depots, barracks, kitchens, machine and repair shops, communications, and even electric generators in some instances), and their ingenious defenses (including water barriers and traps, secret entrances behind secret entrances, defensive geometry, and even defenses against fire – and smoke!). The only means the soldiers of Angmar would have to accomplish this would be to light a fire outside and try to fan the smoke into the barrow, which could have been countered reasonably well by placing a wet blanket across the entrance. Because they were covered in part by earth, the barrows did not burn, so you could not “smoke out” defenders as you would in a partially wooden structure like a castle, where you could set fire to the wood in the building and force the people inside (and above the burning) to come out and take their chances or suffocate.