Did Saruman Believe He Could Master The One Ring?

[The Saucepan Man]

I repeat ...

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

In any event, no one asserting that Sauron did not believe Pippin to be the Ringbearer has put forward any convincing explanation as to why Sauron (to Gandalf's mind) would be so obsessed with this Hobbit and why he would want him so urgently, if not only for information.

[Raynor]

In Unfinished Tales, The hunt for the ring, it is stated that Sauron was in great haste and fear when he heard that his enemies have captured Gollum. Apparently, he fears for anyone who has access to those with relevant information about the ring. Sure, he wants information for himself, but he also wants to hold off others from obtaining that information. I think that in this "others" we can safely include Saruman, of whom Sauron became aware that his servants waylaid or misled his own agents.

[Boromir88]

Can someone please explain to me why speculating about what Gandalf said is somehow less compelling or convincing than speculating about what Sauron thought?

By saying it's Gandalf's speculation, I'm actually implying both. Bottom line is we don't know what Sauron thought, we only know what Gandalf thought he thought. So, it would be incorrect for anyone to assert what Sauron truly thought (through Gandalf's thought), because we don't know what he actually thought except for what he tells Pippin through the Palantir. Which, what he tells Pippin through the Palantir seems to be:

1. He and Pippin will meet again.
2. He believes Saruman has something that isn't his to have.

Edit: Cross-posted with Raynor:

True, but according to Gandalf Sauron didn't just want Pippin for information, he actually believed he (or Saruman) had something else of importance that wasn't Saruman's to have. And I think we can say Gandalf's speculation in this case is accurate because we know what Sauron said to Pippin through the Palantir and he believed Saruman had something that wasn't his, and that Sauron will send for it.

[Raynor]

I don't think that Sauron believed Pippin to be the ringbearer. For one thing, the witch-king must have told him about his meeting with Frodo. As we know from Reader's Companion quote from Marquette, page 180, which has been presented several times on this site, the witch-king believed Frodo to be very powerful, able to defeat a barrow-wight and to even withstand the witch-king himself, almost giving him a mortal wound. Pippin is a _far_ cry from this.

[Boromir88]

I'm sure the Witch-King did give Sauron an account of Frodo and the whole adventure leading up to his horse being washed away in the flood. But, as was discussed earlier in this thread...did Sauron get a good image of what Frodo looked like through the WK's description (if indeed there even was a description given)? Would Sauron be able to tell if Pippin was Frodo or not? The phantom showed quite reasonably that the palantir did not paint a 'clear picture'...again Sauron didn't even know the palantir was out of Isengard anymore...how clear could the picture have been? How clear of a picture did the Witch-King get of Frodo? Afterall the encounter took place at night. Why would Sauron want to not only remember Pippin's face, but Pippin's voice? The question still remains what else is it that Sauron wanted from Saruman? Or what he wanted from Pippin? What else did Saruman's captive have that Sauron would want immediately?

[Raynor]

I was referring to Frodo's inner strength, not to his phisical characteristics. He was able do resist the witch-king quite well. Gandalf says that those with a will of adamant can resist the lure of the palantir towards Barad-dur; Aragorn is able to resist Sauron in his wrestle through the palantir, and, according to the source quoted above, the witch-king had more fear of Frodo than of Aragorn. All the while, Pippin falls like a deck of cards.

[Boromir88]

If that's the case, would Sauron think that a hobbit could seriously contend with his own will?

All the while, Pippin falls like a deck of cards.

We actually don't see the effects looking into the palantir and the mind to mind transfer Pippin had with Sauron until after the fact. Pippin seems fairly composed when he gets Sauron's message, although he is filled with fear, he is able to remember what Sauron told him to say and he does answer Sauron's question of who he is. He doesn't show the effects until after the use of the Palantir.

Aragorn is able to resist Sauron in his wrestle through the palantir

Comparing Aragorn's will and ability to wrestle away control from Sauron through the palantir to Pippin's use of it just isn't fair. Aragorn was 1. the rightful user of the Palantir and 2. the farther away the palantir is from Barad-dur the weaker Sauron's will is.

Gandalf says that those with a will of adamant can resist the lure of the palantir towards Barad-dur

I don't think Frodo had such a will. Frodo put on the Ring several times (which seems to me that he didn't have a will of adamant since he couldn't resist the desire to put on the ring). So he very well could have found an urge to look into the palantir had he ever come across one. If we are to even take Gandalf's words as truth, did Frodo have such a will that he could resist any sort of urges? I doubt it, as again he did put on the Ring on several occasions, but more importantly did Sauron believe it?

and, according to the source quoted above, the witch-king had more fear of Frodo than of Aragorn.

Your mis-use of the quote is simply astounding. It doesn't say the Witch-King feared Frodo, because he was Frodo. The Witch-King feared Frodo because Frodo had a blade that could essentially destroy him:

Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor -knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron , and the forces of Sauron's will was the stronger.

The Witch-King didn't fear Frodo because he felt intimidated by Frodo's physical traits, or any other reason other than the fact that Frodo carried a blade that could cause his end, and indeed did end up causing his end.

[Raynor]

If that's the case, would Sauron think that a hobbit could seriously contend with his own will?

From the report of the witch-king, I would expect that he did.

Pippin seems fairly composed when he gets Sauron's message

Sauron caused him to suffer cruely, so that he felt he was falling to pieces, and I believe he was aware of his effect on the hobbit.

he is able to remember what Sauron told him to say

I think it would be fair to say that he was almost brainwashed by Sauron, seeing his reactions afterwards; he repeats his words like a puppet.

he does answer Sauron's question of who he is.

After he was "hurt terribly".

Comparing Aragorn's will and ability to wrestle away control from Sauron through the palantir to Pippin's use of it just isn't fair. Aragorn was 1. the rightful user of the Palantir and 2. the farther away the palantir is from Barad-dur the weaker Sauron's will is.

2. cuts both ways. You are correct about 1., but it seems that Gandalf believes that others too can master the palantir to a certain extant, as referred to above.

I don't think Frodo had such a will. Frodo put on the Ring several times (which seems to me that he didn't have a will of adamant since he couldn't resist the desire to put on the ring).

We should note that, even if Frodo did have his failings concerning the ring, Tolkien noted in letter #192:

Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far.

So he very well could have found an urge to look into the palantir had he ever come across one

My point wasn't about resisting the urge to use the palantir, but to resist the lure towards Barad-dur once the palantir was used.

The Witch-King didn't fear Frodo because he felt intimidated by Frodo's physical traits,

Again, when did I make such an argument? It is twice you are presuming this on my behalf.

Your mis-use of the quote is simply astounding.

I would appreciate it if you would be kinder in your remarks.

or any other reason other than the fact that Frodo carried a blade that could cause his end, and indeed did end up causing his end.

I don't think it is right to disregard other referrences in that quote:

But above all the timid and terrified Beared had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted swords made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it - save in the barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the barrow wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the nazgul. He was then in league with the High Elves of the Havens.

Simple ownership of the blade wasn't sufficient; a powerful weapon in and of itself, isn't necessarily a deterrent. Frodo proved other qualities that earned the fear of the witch-king.