Did Saruman Believe He Could Master The One Ring?

[Boromir88]

I'm sure the Witch-King did give Sauron an account of Frodo and the whole adventure leading up to his horse being washed away in the flood. But, as was discussed earlier in this thread...did Sauron get a good image of what Frodo looked like through the WK's description (if indeed there even was a description given)? Would Sauron be able to tell if Pippin was Frodo or not? The phantom showed quite reasonably that the palantir did not paint a 'clear picture'...again Sauron didn't even know the palantir was out of Isengard anymore...how clear could the picture have been? How clear of a picture did the Witch-King get of Frodo? Afterall the encounter took place at night. Why would Sauron want to not only remember Pippin's face, but Pippin's voice? The question still remains what else is it that Sauron wanted from Saruman? Or what he wanted from Pippin? What else did Saruman's captive have that Sauron would want immediately?

[Raynor]

I was referring to Frodo's inner strength, not to his phisical characteristics. He was able do resist the witch-king quite well. Gandalf says that those with a will of adamant can resist the lure of the palantir towards Barad-dur; Aragorn is able to resist Sauron in his wrestle through the palantir, and, according to the source quoted above, the witch-king had more fear of Frodo than of Aragorn. All the while, Pippin falls like a deck of cards.

[Boromir88]

If that's the case, would Sauron think that a hobbit could seriously contend with his own will?

All the while, Pippin falls like a deck of cards.

We actually don't see the effects looking into the palantir and the mind to mind transfer Pippin had with Sauron until after the fact. Pippin seems fairly composed when he gets Sauron's message, although he is filled with fear, he is able to remember what Sauron told him to say and he does answer Sauron's question of who he is. He doesn't show the effects until after the use of the Palantir.

Aragorn is able to resist Sauron in his wrestle through the palantir

Comparing Aragorn's will and ability to wrestle away control from Sauron through the palantir to Pippin's use of it just isn't fair. Aragorn was 1. the rightful user of the Palantir and 2. the farther away the palantir is from Barad-dur the weaker Sauron's will is.

Gandalf says that those with a will of adamant can resist the lure of the palantir towards Barad-dur

I don't think Frodo had such a will. Frodo put on the Ring several times (which seems to me that he didn't have a will of adamant since he couldn't resist the desire to put on the ring). So he very well could have found an urge to look into the palantir had he ever come across one. If we are to even take Gandalf's words as truth, did Frodo have such a will that he could resist any sort of urges? I doubt it, as again he did put on the Ring on several occasions, but more importantly did Sauron believe it?

and, according to the source quoted above, the witch-king had more fear of Frodo than of Aragorn.

Your mis-use of the quote is simply astounding. It doesn't say the Witch-King feared Frodo, because he was Frodo. The Witch-King feared Frodo because Frodo had a blade that could essentially destroy him:

Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor -knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron , and the forces of Sauron's will was the stronger.

The Witch-King didn't fear Frodo because he felt intimidated by Frodo's physical traits, or any other reason other than the fact that Frodo carried a blade that could cause his end, and indeed did end up causing his end.

[Raynor]

If that's the case, would Sauron think that a hobbit could seriously contend with his own will?

From the report of the witch-king, I would expect that he did.

Pippin seems fairly composed when he gets Sauron's message

Sauron caused him to suffer cruely, so that he felt he was falling to pieces, and I believe he was aware of his effect on the hobbit.

he is able to remember what Sauron told him to say

I think it would be fair to say that he was almost brainwashed by Sauron, seeing his reactions afterwards; he repeats his words like a puppet.

he does answer Sauron's question of who he is.

After he was "hurt terribly".

Comparing Aragorn's will and ability to wrestle away control from Sauron through the palantir to Pippin's use of it just isn't fair. Aragorn was 1. the rightful user of the Palantir and 2. the farther away the palantir is from Barad-dur the weaker Sauron's will is.

2. cuts both ways. You are correct about 1., but it seems that Gandalf believes that others too can master the palantir to a certain extant, as referred to above.

I don't think Frodo had such a will. Frodo put on the Ring several times (which seems to me that he didn't have a will of adamant since he couldn't resist the desire to put on the ring).

We should note that, even if Frodo did have his failings concerning the ring, Tolkien noted in letter #192:

Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far.

So he very well could have found an urge to look into the palantir had he ever come across one

My point wasn't about resisting the urge to use the palantir, but to resist the lure towards Barad-dur once the palantir was used.

The Witch-King didn't fear Frodo because he felt intimidated by Frodo's physical traits,

Again, when did I make such an argument? It is twice you are presuming this on my behalf.

Your mis-use of the quote is simply astounding.

I would appreciate it if you would be kinder in your remarks.

or any other reason other than the fact that Frodo carried a blade that could cause his end, and indeed did end up causing his end.

I don't think it is right to disregard other referrences in that quote:

But above all the timid and terrified Beared had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted swords made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it - save in the barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the barrow wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the nazgul. He was then in league with the High Elves of the Havens.

Simple ownership of the blade wasn't sufficient; a powerful weapon in and of itself, isn't necessarily a deterrent. Frodo proved other qualities that earned the fear of the witch-king.

[Boromir88]

I'll first start here:

I would appreciate it if you would be kinder in your remarks.

That I do apologize for, it looks harsh and I should have used better wording. From the post before it looked like your argument was that Frodo was stronger (as far as will went) than Aragorn because the Witch-King feared him more than Aragorn. But, I don't think that's what UT was implying because the Witch-King wasn't afraid of Frodo's strength he mustered up. He did figure that Frodo had to be strong enough to get past the Barrow-wights and have the sword of the Westernesse. Also was taken back by Frodo striking at him and that he had called upon Elbereth...but he wasn't afraid of Frodo because he was comparable to Aragorn, or greater than Aragorn. He was afraid of Frodo because of what Frodo possessed (a blade that could kill him) and he used the name of Elbereth. (For which instead of looking in my book I went to a quick reference and missed the rest of it).

I think also it still shows Frodo was terrified of the Witch-King (and this can be supported from the encounter in LOTR)...but the Witch-King was just taken back by Frodo striking at him (and other factors). Frodo acted like a person stuck in a corner...he was still scared out of his boots (err...feet), but he was backed into a situation where he had to lash out...out of fear:

Terror overcame Pippin and Merry, and they threw themselves flat on the ground. Sam shrank to Frodo's side. Frodo was hardly less terrified than his companions; he was quaking as if he was bitter cold, but his terror was swallowed up in a sudden temptation to put on the Ring....
At that moment Frodo threw himself forward on the ground, and he heard himself crying aloud: O Elbereth! Gilthoniel! At the same time he struck at the feet of his enemy.~A Knife in the Dark

I'm not arguing that Pippin had a stronger will than Frodo's, as you show, what Frodo accomplished probably could not have been by anyone else during this time. But I don't see how Sauron would know based upon strength of will that it wasn't Frodo on the other side of the palantir, even had the Witch-King told him the full account. Because:

1. Frodo was still terrified of the Witch-King.
2. I don't think it's reasonable to think that since this encounter and the Witch-King was scared by the events that took place, Sauron would believe any hobbit would be able to contend with his will. Whether it was a hobbit who was able to survive the Barrow-wight and resist the Witch-King or not, neither of them are Sauron. Sauron didn't seem to fear too many things other than someone possibly getting the Ring and challenging him.

Sauron caused him to suffer cruely, so that he felt he was falling to pieces, and I believe he was aware of his effect on the hobbit.

Sauron could probably see Pippin was quite terrified by him, but again Frodo was terrified of the Witch-King. Why would Sauron believe that since this hobbit was scared out of his mind it couldn't have been the Ringbearer then?

My point wasn't about resisting the urge to use the palantir, but to resist the lure towards Barad-dur once the palantir was used.

Why would Frodo be able to resist the pull to Barad-dur? He put on the Ring several times. Frodo had shown that he did not have the will to resist the Ring's pull and the Ring was nearly revealed to Sauron because of Frodo (putting it on to escape Boromir):

'The Ring now has passed beyond my help, or the help of any of the Company that set out from Rivendell. Very nearly it was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that..'.~The White Rider

The two powers strove in him. For a moment, perfectly balanced between the piercing points, he writhed, tormented. Suddenly he was aware of himself again. Frodo, neither the Voice nor the Eye: free to choose, and with one remaining instant in which to do so. He took the Ring off his finger.~Breaking of the Fellowship

Knowing this, why would Frodo have the will to resist the pull to Barad-dur (through the Palantir), he didn't have the will to resist the Ring's pull to Sauron. And even if he did, what would make Sauron believe that he could do such a thing?

Sauce pan: In any event, no one asserting that Sauron did not believe Pippin to be the Ringbearer has put forward any convincing explanation as to why Sauron (to Gandalf's mind) would be so obsessed with this Hobbit and why he would want him so urgently, if not only for information.

I think this still remains unadressed. Also, to add, I haven't seen other suggestions as far as what is it that Sauron believed Saruman had (that wasn't his to have) and a Nazgul was coming to get immediately.

[Raynor]

I don't think it's reasonable to think that since this encounter and the Witch-King was scared by the events that took place, Sauron would believe any hobbit would be able to contend with his will.

Well, this would imply that Sauron thought the ring passed from one hobbit to another; I don't think that he has reasons to believe that. As far as he is concerned, the ringbearer survived from one attack to another and was still carrying the ring.

Sauron could probably see Pippin was quite terrified by him, but again Frodo was terrified of the Witch-King. Why would Sauron believe that since this hobbit was scared out of his mind it couldn't have been the Ringbearer then?

I believe it was more than fear: Sauron actually controlled Pippin through the palantir. Would he expected Frodo to be as easily bent to his will? Imo, if he trusted witch-king's report - no.

He put on the Ring several times. Frodo had shown that he did not have the will to resist the Ring's pull and the Ring was nearly revealed to Sauron because of Frodo (putting it on to escape Boromir)

I don't think that that this second part of your argument is related to the first one, since, in this case, Frodo didn't put on the ring out of weakness, but of necessity.

Knowing this, why would Frodo have the will to resist the pull to Barad-dur (through the Palantir), he didn't have the will to resist the Ring's pull to Sauron.

As a matter of personal opinion, it is easier for Sauron to control someone who has the ring, even if from afar, than to control someone through the palantir. It seems to me that our debate on Frodo and Pippin has moved this thread away from other members' interest, perhaps we could continue this on another thread.

Sauce pan: In any event, no one asserting that Sauron did not believe Pippin to be the Ringbearer has put forward any convincing explanation as to why Sauron (to Gandalf's mind) would be so obsessed with this Hobbit and why he would want him so urgently, if not only for information.

We know that Sauron was already obssessed with the ring; I don't think it is unreasonable for him to extend that to matters related to recovering the ring.

Also, to add, I haven't seen other suggestions as far as what is it that Sauron believed Saruman had (that wasn't his to have) and a Nazgul was coming to get immediately.

I expressed my opinion, in post #56, that:
In Unfinished Tales, The hunt for the ring, it is stated that Sauron was in great haste and fear when he heard that his enemies have captured Gollum. Apparently, he fears for anyone who has access to those with relevant information about the ring. Sure, he wants information for himself, but he also wants to hold off others from obtaining that information. I think that in this "others" we can safely include Saruman, of whom Sauron became aware that his servants waylaid or misled his own agents.
IIRC, in the Reader's Companion, Sauron was displeased at the witch-king's bringing his enemies closer to the ring, so this was becoming an increasing concern for him. To address your reply to my post:

he actually believed he (or Saruman) had something else of importance that wasn't Saruman's to have.

I don't think that we have already established that. If anything, neither Sauron nor Gandalf make _any_ referrence to the ring.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Raynor

If anything, neither Sauron nor Gandalf make _any_ referrence to the ring.

That depends upon what construction you put on Sauron's use of the word "it" when addressing Pippin. The logical construction or the illogical one.

As for the other strand of this debate, I really don't think that there is any solid basis for assuming that Sauron was able in this encounter sufficiently to assess the Hobbit's physical and mental characteristics so as to distinguish him from another Hobbit. Sauron was indifferent to Hobbits, save on the subject of the Ring. His only interest in them arose from his knowledge that one of them bore his Ring.

If we are to believe Gandalf, we know that Sauron wanted this Hobbit for more than just information. Had he believed Pippin not to be the Ringbearer, then surely his only interest in him would have been his information value. Yet Gandalf believed that he wanted this Hobbit urgently, was obsessed with this Hobbit, and not just for information.

Had Sauron realised that Pippin was not the Ringbearer, he would have questioned him there and then as to the location and situation of the Ringebearer. He did not, because he made an erroneous assumption. An error that he would, Gandalf believed, take some time in discovering.

And just to stick up for Pippin for a moment, it is to his credit that he did not spill the beans there and then to Sauron. Knowing that Sauron wanted the Ring, and being subject to the will of Sauron during the encounter, he did pretty well to avoid doing so.