Why take a body? Why make a Ring?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Rune

I believe Ulmo hardly ever had a physical form, but still managed to send messages to Elves and Men.

Ulmo does have a body, yet not of the manner of his peers:

Originally Posted by Of the valar, Valaquenta, Silmarillion

Moreover he does not love to walk upon land, and will seldom clothe himself in a body after the manner of his peers. If the Children of Eru beheld him they were filled with a great dread; for the arising of the King of the Sea was terrible, as a mounting wave that strides to the land, with dark helm foam-crested and raiment of mail shimmering from silver down into shadows of green.

although the description given in Unfinished Tales sounds a bit more humane:

Originally Posted by Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin, Part One: The first age

And it seemed to [Tuor] that a great wave rose far off and rolled towards the land, but wonder held him, and he remained there unmoved. And the wave came towards him, and upon it lay a mist of shadow. Then suddenly as it drew near it curled, and broke, and rushed forward in long arms of foam; but where it had broken there stood dark against the rising storm a living shape of great height and majesty.

Then Tuor bowed in reverence, for it seemed to him that he beheld a mighty king. A tall crown he wore like silver, from which his long hair fell down as foam glimmering in the dusk and as he cast back the grey mantle that hung about him like a mist, behold! he was clad in a gleaming coat, close-fitted as the mail of mighty fish, and in a kirtle of deep green that flashed and flickered with sea-fire as he strode slowly towards the land.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Moreover he does not love to walk upon land, and will seldom clothe himself in a body after the manner of his peers. If the Children of Eru beheld him they were filled with a great dread; for the arising of the King of the Sea was terrible, as a mounting wave that strides to the land, with dark helm foam-crested and raiment of mail shimmering from silver down into shadows of green.

The way I read it, it means that he seldome has a physical body like the other Valar. When he talks to Tuor it is one of the few times he takes physical shape. . .

Maybe I am reading it wrong, but this was the impression I got.

[Raynor]

It seems that the valar weren't always 'clothed' after all; in letter #212, which I previously quoted, it is said that the "habitual" shapes of the valar when visible or clothed are antropomorphic. In the commentary on the first section of the Annals of Aman, it is also stated that they "most often" used shapes of human form.

[Lalwendë]

Err, I certainly doubt that the halls of Mandos would ever come close to the Hells of Iron - Angband, which many of the elves would have experiened long before the halls of Mandos. Not to mention that in Mandos, Nienna brings pity, endurance, hope, strength and wisdom, cf Of the Valar.

But Angband would be a living Hell, a very different thing to a hell for the soul or spirit. I also tend to view Mandos as more like purgatory, certainly for those who do not leave due to being 'punished'. Perhaps there simply is no Hell for Elves that we can conceive of, due to their different nature?

And following on from that, what can we take from what happens to Saruman after his physical 'cloaking' is broken? His 'spirit' reaches out to the West but is blown away. Is it dissipated? Is it just rejected and left to wander? If the 'spirit' can be dissipated so easily, maybe Ainur sought out a physical form as a way of attaining some kind of protection - especially if wanting to commit evil deeds?

In fact,can we call it a Fea if we are talking about one of the Ainur? Or do the terms Fea and Hroa only apply to Incarnates, i.e. Elves, Men, Dwarves? In the Osanwe-kenta Tolkien makes a clear distinction between the Ainur and the 'Incarnates'.

[Raynor]

But Angband would be a living Hell, a very different thing to a hell for the soul or spirit. I also tend to view Mandos as more like purgatory

Mandos as a purgatory is something I can live with ; there is no suffering coming from outside, on the contrary, given the Nienna factor. Maybe even purgatory is strong a word.

Is it dissipated?

I doubt that:

Originally Posted by Letter #211

The indestructibility of spirits with free wills, even by the Creator of them, is also an inevitable feature, if one either believes in their existence, or feigns it in a story.

In fact,can we call it a Fea if we are talking about one of the Ainur? Or do the terms Fea and Hroa only apply to Incarnates, i.e. Elves, Men, Dwarves? In the Osanwe-kenta Tolkien makes a clear distinction between the Ainur and the 'Incarnates'.

I believe the difference lies only in orders of magnitude; in the text you refer to it is also stated that:

Pengolodh says that all minds (sama, pl. samar) are equal in status, though they differ in capacity and strength.

and from the context it is understood that he referrs to ainu-level and Incarnates too. The term fea is translated as spirit; the valar and the maiar are also referred to as spirits in the Silmarillion.

[littlemanpoet]

So the Valar (Ainur & Maiar), as non-incarnates, could & did influence incarnate (bodied) beings in Arda. The question of 'why take a body' still seems to have been adequately answered (to use SPM's rewording), to interact with incarnates.

The Valar could subcreate without being incarnate, at least at first. But could it perhaps be that after the initial forming of the structure of Arda, that ability was lost, or set aside?

I suppose it doesn't really matter: Melian chose to become incarnate so that she could love Thingol and have union with him, and give birth to Luthien and raise her, and set a destiny for Elves and Humans that none but Eru foresaw. Is this not subcreation for the purpose of enjoyment and sharing? But is it not more? ...because there's something of destiny in this now, which suggests something more powerful than mere enjoyment or sharing; but what?

To give the dark example, Sauron chose to become incarnate so that he could possess and control. Could he not do so without becoming incarnate? If so, why then take a body (back to the original question)? Why make a Ring?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I suppose it doesn't really matter: Melian chose to become incarnate so that she could love Thingol and have union with him, and give birth to Luthien and raise her, and set a destiny for Elves and Humans that none but Eru foresaw. Is this not subcreation for the purpose of enjoyment and sharing? But is it not more? ...because there's something of destiny in this now, which suggests something more powerful than mere enjoyment or sharing; but what?

That could not really be why she chose to become incarnated unless she knew all this would happen in advance. Why did she chose to walk in a earthly body in the forrest when Thingol came by? Surely she did not expect him to show up, then again she is a powerful Maia. . .Maybe she had forseen some of what would happen.