Why take a body? Why make a Ring?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I suppose it doesn't really matter: Melian chose to become incarnate so that she could love Thingol and have union with him, and give birth to Luthien and raise her, and set a destiny for Elves and Humans that none but Eru foresaw. Is this not subcreation for the purpose of enjoyment and sharing? But is it not more? ...because there's something of destiny in this now, which suggests something more powerful than mere enjoyment or sharing; but what?

That could not really be why she chose to become incarnated unless she knew all this would happen in advance. Why did she chose to walk in a earthly body in the forrest when Thingol came by? Surely she did not expect him to show up, then again she is a powerful Maia. . .Maybe she had forseen some of what would happen.

[Lalwendë]

Some useful grist for t'mill from Osanwe-kenta:

The Valar entered into Ea and Time of free will, and they are now in Time, so long as it endures. They can perceive nothing outside Time, save by memory of their existence before it began; they can recall the Song and the Vision. They are, of course, open to Eru, but they cannot of their own will 'see' any part of His mind. They can open themselves to Eru in entreaty and He may then reveal His thought to them.

and

...a mind can only learn of the future only from another mind which has seen it.But that means only from Eru ultimately, or mediately from some mind that has seen in Eru some part of his purpose (such as the Ainur who are now in Ea).

So a Maia such as Melian might know from before Time some of the purposes of Eru, or she might have asked Eru about the future, but likewise, there are no guarantees. We are also told in the Sil that she simply loved Thingol and so took on a physical form (and in Osanwe-kenta we are told that the act of begetting children is particularly likely to 'fix' someone in physical form, so she must really have been in love!). Therefore, it could be either - I would say the 'magic' is in not really knowing the truth.


Of course, if we go down the path that Melian knew Eru's purpose, why should Sauron not have known it? And that leaves us with one of two options - evil was unavoidable as Eru made it happen, or Sauron (and the Dark Side) were actually trying to free Ea from 'fate'.

EDIT

And another thing...

Thinking about the way that the Ainur entered Ea and were then 'stuck' there until the end of Time, there is an odd occurence of one of the Ainur who does not seem to have been stuck there. Gandalf.

A great smoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell. 'Naked I was sent back--for a brief time, until my task is done. And naked I lay upon the mountain-top. The tower behind was crumbled into dust, the window gone; the ruined stair was choked with burned and broken stone. I was alone, forgotten, without escape upon the hard horn of the world. There I lay staring upward, while the stars wheeled over, and each day was as long as a life-age of the earth. Faint to my ears came the gathered rumour of all lands: the springing and the dying, the song and the weeping, and the slow everlasting groan of overburdened stone. And so at the last Gwaihir the Windlord found me again, and he took me up and bore me away. '"Ever am I fated to be your burden, friend at need," I said. '"A burden you have been," he answered, "but not so now. Light as a swan's feather in my claw you are. The Sun shines through you. Indeed I do not think you need me any more: were I to let you fall, you would float upon the wind." '"Do not let me fall!" I gasped, for I felt life in me again. "Bear me to Lothlorien!" '"That indeed is the command of the Lady Galadriel who sent me to look for you," he answered. "Thus it was that I came to Caras Galadhon and found you but lately gone. I tarried there in the ageless time of that land where days bring healing not decay. Healing I found, and I was clothed in white. Counsel I gave and counsel took.

What's this then? Gandalf seems to have gone right outside Time (as has been discussed before), but he is returned seemingly as a Fea only, judging by what Gwaihir says. The Sun shines straight through him. Does his Hroa come back to him as Gwaihir bears him along? Does it come back to him in Lothlorien? Can that be ruled out as surely even Galadriel cannot be permitted to rehouse a Fea? Note that Galadriel formed the White Council, and she is the one who clothes Gandalf in White. Is she the one who chooses the White Wizard?

[littlemanpoet]

I didn't really mean to suggest that Melian had all this in mind when she revealed herself to Thingol. Rather, that she loved him and intended to become his Queen (if that title is appropriate), and all that would ensue therefrom; and it was Eru who knew just what that would all be. I really meant that all those things were results of a once-in-time choice. Sort of like real life, eh?

But I'm not getting answers on the newly stated Dark question:

If Sauron didn't need to be incarnate in order to subcreate, own, possess, ruin, torture, and make a Ring to do the same, why become incarnate at all? Was it something that Eru required in order for Valar to be part of the History of Arda? Were there ever any really non-incarnate Valar in Arda? Ulmo does not fit this description, as he was incarnate as Water rather than as Human(oid).

[Lalwendë]

Just cross posted with you - with some other thoughts. Sorry!

Hmm, but Ulmo's 'form' is an elemental one, one which necessarily interacts with the world. The other Ainur also either take on 'humanoid' (don't like that word) or 'elemental' forms. Those who take on 'elemental' forms seem to become personifications of those elements - e.g. Varda as the stars, Yavanna as plants. They very much become part of the fabric of Arda.

So I would say that Sauron too had to take on a form or an 'aspect' in order to interact with Arda too. When Sauron is without physical form all he can do is 'influence', he cannot physically interact with the world. However, there was still the Ring, so something 'physical' of him still existed. So could we say he never really went away for that time? Also, the Ringwraiths existed throughout that time, bound to him.

[littlemanpoet]

The problem with saying that Sauron can only influence and not interact, when without Hroa, is that he somehow managed to get the Ring from the sinking Numenor to Middle Earth proper, as Raynor reminded us a few posts back. How did he do that? By the power of the Ring, perhaps? Or was Sauron partly in the Ring, such that he could be considered to have been incarnate even though his body has been destroyed? I think it is an unnecessary conundrum, and the answer is that a fëa does not need to be in a hroa in order to interact/influence/change Arda, depending upon the power of the Maia we're discussing, of course.

As for Gandalf, there is a bit of a mystery there. That Gwaihir says he can see through him could indicate a couple of things:
1. Gwaihir can see hroa-less fëar
2. Gandalf's hroa was transparent

I lean toward the second, because Gandalf perceives Frodo as somewhat transparent, lying in the bed at Rivendel (quite early in the tale!); I think we can take it here that Gandalf is looking at Frodo with his hroa eyes, by the way.

So Gandalf has been taken out of Time and placed back in Time. This must have been accomplished by Eru since such an action is beyond the capability of any of the Valar. The battle with the Balrog has, first of all, killed Gandalf. His hroa is dead. But his fëa is taken clean out of Arda, not sent to the Halls of Mandos; then it is sent back again to the very same Time and Place (give or take hours/days/whatever). And the fëa is reconnected with its hroa, but revivified and made less "fleshy" by his battle with the Balrog. This has precedent throughout the Legendarium; not only with Frodo, but with the greatest of the Elves; the more purified (burning with the inner fire of their own fëar usually) the Eldar become, the more transparent they become. This seems to be evident with Elrond too.

(It's interesting how fëar are represented as the element of fire...)

[Raynor]

At the time of the making of the Girdle of Doriath, Melian told Thingol that she foresaw the coming of Beren, and he would be more powerful than her magic, since a higher doom drives him. Now, unless Eru revealed to Melian these things only after she met Thingol, she must have known all along about Beren and his doom, her girdle, and, most likely, her presence and role in Middle Earth near Thingol.

Originally Posted by Lal

Those who take on 'elemental' forms seem to become personifications of those elements - e.g. Varda as the stars

I don't think that Varda is described as 'elemental', since, as stated in the Valaquenta:

Originally Posted by Of the Valar

Too great is her beauty to be declared in the words of Men or of Elves; for the light of Iluvatar lives still in her face.

Concerning the issue of interaction/influence, I would say that even semantically they are almost similar; or, to be more exact, influence is a particular case of interaction. So far, we know of no limitation of the valar and maiar in their incarnate form; the opposite is, actually, true.

[Lalwendë]

I also find a problem in how Sauron got the Ring from Numenor. The answer to it could also lie in the nature of the Ring of course. But we do see one Maia without physical form and that's Saruman, and from the description of what happens to him, it wouldn't seem possible that he could interact with the physical world - after all, surely if he could, then wouldn't he have smote the Hobbits or somesuch? Instead he immediately appeals to the Valar and is rejected. Though perhaps this explains why they send the wind to dissipate him?

Now, there is another possibility as to why Sauron (and indeed Melkor) would want to take on a physical form. The possession of a Hroa actually provides some degree of 'protection', an additional barrier of Unwill to prevent the mind from being perceived. And if you have dark deeds in mind, then you do not want them to be revealed.

And yet more ideas... Of course Melkor and Sauron wanted to interact with the Elves, and then with Men and other mortals. Possession of a Hroa would instantly make this easier as a tangible person would be more readily accepted than a spirit. That's just simple psychology, and note also that both our Dark Lords also take on a 'fair' form at first, instantly attractive and appealing. There is also the issue of language, a pertinent one considering the central importance of language to our author. Incarnates have become users of language as habit instead of using sanwe, though Tolkien makes it clear they still have this ability, in some it lies latent and in others they do use it a little even when using language. Is it possible that it was essential to have a Hroa in order to use language?