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Old 11-15-2006, 02:01 PM   #1
Athrasuriel
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Firstly, Saruman, I believe, had fallen into darkness (though not openly), far before Gandalf discovered that he had. FAR before it. The Shire, defended by the Rangers (and, I may add, a VERY select cadre of them), was otherwise defenceless. Now, when Gandalf mentioned that he had found the Ring in the possession of a Hobbit (Though Saruman had been spying before then), it will have largely increased Saruman's interest, not in the Shire, but in it's inhabitants. Ergo, it is no small wonder that he found them to be hardy folk. Subsequently, as had been mentioned in Hobbiton by Gandalf to Frodo, Saruman would have realised the prospect of forcing the Hobbits into slave labour. And, surprise surprise, that is what he did (more or less), after being ousted from power by Gandalf and the Fellowship (with the invaluable help of the Rohirrim). So there you go, a rather plausible reason for Saruman's interest in the Shire, cheap slave labour.
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Old 11-15-2006, 02:45 PM   #2
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Firstly, Saruman, I believe, had fallen into darkness (though not openly), far before Gandalf discovered that he had. FAR before it.
In the Tale of years, 2851 is the year in which Saruman began desiring the possesion of the ring:
Quote:
2851
The White Council meets. Gandalf urges an attack on Dol Guldur. Saruman overrules him. [It afterwards became clear that Saruman had then begun to desire to possess the One Ring himself, and he hoped that it might reveal itself, seeking its master, if Sauron were let be for a time.] Saruman begins to search near the Gladden Fields.
In the last version given in Unfinished Tales, apparently rejected, Gandalf already suspected at that council that Saruman was becoming corrupt, hence the puffing of ring smokes in a sign of insolence, which gave all sorts of funny ideas to the paranoid Saruman concerning the hobbits and the ring.
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Old 11-15-2006, 03:00 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Raynor
In the Tale of years, 2851 is the year in which Saruman began desiring the possesion of the ring:
In the last version given in Unfinished Tales, apparently rejected, Gandalf already suspected at that council that Saruman was becoming corrupt, hence the puffing of ring smokes in a sign of insolence, which gave all sorts of funny ideas to the paranoid Saruman concerning the hobbits and the ring.
Yeah, that's right. The thing is, if he did, did Saruman start to care about the Shire so much that he started to visit the Shire (or somehow interact with it, be it spying or whatever) just after that event (the 2851 Council) or was he just thinking about it and really started to investigate about the Shire in 2953?
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Old 11-15-2006, 03:24 PM   #4
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If we are to believe the Tale of years:
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2953

Being jealous and afraid of Gandalf [Saruman] sets spies to watch all his movements; and notes his interest in the Shire. He soon begins to keep agents in Bree and the Southfarthing.
Apparently, 2953 is the year when his interest in the Shire began.
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Old 11-15-2006, 03:27 PM   #5
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In the Tale of years, 2851 is the year in which Saruman began desiring the possesion of the ring
Indeed, though it is not confirmed as the year in which he became corrupt, as Saruman had studied ring-lore for quite a long time.
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Old 11-15-2006, 11:35 PM   #6
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I don't think it's ever really conclusive when Saruman had started heading down the wrong path, but I think we can get a generalized idea of the time frame.

We know that right from the start Saruman (Curumo) was jealous of Gandalf (Olorin):
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But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.~Unfinished Tales; The Istari
And when Gandalf recieved one of the Elven Rings, Saruman found out and grew even more jealous:
Quote:
'And the Grey Messenger took the ring , and kept it secret; yet the White Messenger (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift, and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore the Gret,which afterwards became manifest.'~ibid
I don't think Saruman was evil at this point, but I think we can definitely see the beginning of his turn to evil right from the beginning with his jealousy towards Gandalf and the Ring he recieved from Cirdan.

Quote:
'In this way Saruman began to behave as a lord of Men; for at first he held Isengard as a lieutenant of the Steward and warden of the tower. But Frealaf was as glad as Beren to have this so, and to know that Isengard was in the hands of a strong friend. A friend he long seemed, and maybe in the beginning he was in truth.'~Appendix A: The House of Eorl
During Frealaf's reign when Saruman is given Orthanc (T.A. 2759), Saruman still appears to be a good friend to everyone. He at first wtaches over it as a 'lieutenant' to the Steward Beren...then it appears Saruman starts having a change of plans. As Raynor shows in the T.A. 2851, Saruman had started thinking about using the Ring for himself.

So, roughly during that 100 year period when he first is given Orthanc, to the meeting with the White Council I think we can say is when Saruman officially became corrupted. However, I think the seeds of corruption were sewn much earlier starting with Saruman's jealousy of Gandalf.
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Old 11-16-2006, 05:29 AM   #7
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Of course, you don't become evil overnight when falling from the post like Saruman had. I think we can see - as you have very nicely displayed here, Boromir - the "chart" of his fall, generally, in the points of a person (or spirit) a little bit proud of himself (in Valinor) => jealous on Gandalf (also in Valinor, that famous "not-as-the-third" thing; but enhanced after the arrival by knowing about the Ring Gandalf recieved) => growing in being proud (when seeing those stupid Middleeartheans, and also after recieving the Keys to Orthanc) => becoming lusty for power (after settling down at Isengard) => growing more selfish and more centered and closed at himself (like Treebeard said, also coming from how he lived at one place - he changed caring about outside world and the life in the world around him for caring only for his own agenda, literally he changed "change for cold comfort" ) => falling to the lure of power to that point that he started to lust for the One Ring itself (around 2851) => definitely changing his heart and secretly plotting AGAINST his former allies (! to this moment Saruman might be selfish or whatever, he might even been thinking wrong about Gandalf&co, but he didn't DO anything against them - now we have here lying to the Council, fortifying Isengard - 2953, spying Gandalf and putting down spies in the Shire) => hooking up with Sauron (c. 3000 - after using the Palantír of Orthanc). The rest we all know, I suppose.

But back to the original question - in the light of this what we stated above, when do you think, that Saruman actually started to SMOKE?
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