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#1 | |
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Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
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If we are to believe the Tale of years:
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#2 | |
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Guest
Posts: n/a
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#3 | |||
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Laconic Loreman
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I don't think it's ever really conclusive when Saruman had started heading down the wrong path, but I think we can get a generalized idea of the time frame.
We know that right from the start Saruman (Curumo) was jealous of Gandalf (Olorin): Quote:
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So, roughly during that 100 year period when he first is given Orthanc, to the meeting with the White Council I think we can say is when Saruman officially became corrupted. However, I think the seeds of corruption were sewn much earlier starting with Saruman's jealousy of Gandalf.
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Fenris Penguin
Last edited by Boromir88; 11-15-2006 at 11:40 PM. |
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#4 |
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A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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Of course, you don't become evil overnight when falling from the post like Saruman had. I think we can see - as you have very nicely displayed here, Boromir - the "chart" of his fall, generally, in the points of a person (or spirit) a little bit proud of himself (in Valinor) => jealous on Gandalf (also in Valinor, that famous "not-as-the-third" thing; but enhanced after the arrival by knowing about the Ring Gandalf recieved) => growing in being proud (when seeing those stupid Middleeartheans, and also after recieving the Keys to Orthanc) => becoming lusty for power (after settling down at Isengard) => growing more selfish and more centered and closed at himself (like Treebeard said, also coming from how he lived at one place - he changed caring about outside world and the life in the world around him for caring only for his own agenda, literally he changed "change for cold comfort"
) => falling to the lure of power to that point that he started to lust for the One Ring itself (around 2851) => definitely changing his heart and secretly plotting AGAINST his former allies (! to this moment Saruman might be selfish or whatever, he might even been thinking wrong about Gandalf&co, but he didn't DO anything against them - now we have here lying to the Council, fortifying Isengard - 2953, spying Gandalf and putting down spies in the Shire) => hooking up with Sauron (c. 3000 - after using the Palantír of Orthanc). The rest we all know, I suppose.But back to the original question - in the light of this what we stated above, when do you think, that Saruman actually started to SMOKE?
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#5 | |||||
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Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Nurn
Posts: 73
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I think that before the White Council meeting in III 2851, Saruman may already have begun to smoke. I cannot prove that, but it is a mark of smokers temporarily deprived of tobacco that they become extremely irritable when another nearby is using it freely (you may take that as fact from one fond of tobacco), and I think this explains Saruman’s tremendous irritation with Gandalf, who was “smoking prodigiously” (probably because he was irritated with Saruman, and told Frodo and his friends (Unfinished Tales, “Quest for Erebor”) in Minas Tirith after the War of the Ring,
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In the essay “The Istari” (op. cit.), there is a passage that says that Quote:
A little further in this essay is a section labeled “(iii) Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire”, in which it is said that Quote:
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Gandalf’s especial interest in the Shire began after the Long Winter of III 2758, in which many of the hobbits died, and Gandalf came to their aid. In “Quest for Erebor”, he said he was impressed by Quote:
Since we do not know when Gandalf began to smoke, it is difficult to determine when Saruman began. Tobold “Old Toby” Hornblower was credited with being the first hobbit to smoke: that would have been around SR 1070 (III 2670 - RotK, “Appendix B” ): Gandalf could not reasonably have begun before then. Saruman’s interest in pipeweed is unlikley to predate 2759; it certainly began soon after the White Council meeting of 2851, if not before (I still think his reaction to Gandalf’s smoking was extremely harsh: he sounds like modern, real-world anti-smoking zealots, often former smokers themselves); and before the War of the Ring in III 3118, his habit and the influence it gave him in the Shire was well-established, possibly even when the Sackville-Bagginses had Bilbo declared dead in 2942 so that they could take possession of Bag End. |
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#6 | |
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A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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Thanks for your dedicated words, Alcuin, your arguments are as precise and as clean as a blade in the morning
Your speculation about that Saruman started to smoke even BEFORE 2851 is interesting. Myself, I never thought of it (not being smoker at all). What concerns me is, how Saruman gained access to the weed, since he didn't have yet established his agents in the Shire. According to Appendix B in LotR: Quote:
If we take this as possible, then we can take for granted that Saruman visited the Shire - and thus, first smoked - before 2953 (be it 100 years before 2953, or one year before it). Of course, that's no surprise. The question is, how long is that? He "needed supplies": and we have some of 100 years between 2851(when he first spoke about the leaf with Gandalf, and in contrary to Alcuin, I think that here is the point when Saruman even started to think about smoking, but I might be as well mistaken). Anyway: I'm not a smoker, but I don't think that Saruman would have stayed without a smoke, once he started to smoke regularly, for a period of time equaling years or even centuries If he started to smoke, let's say, in 2855, this would mean almost hundred years before he set agents in the South Farthing. This would either mean that Saruman, for example, came to the Shire every 10 years and very inconspicously bought (or ordered) a few tons of the leaf, or that he really started to smoke not too long before 2953 (from when on he had still supply).
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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