Tolkien's 'Smith of Wootton Major' & George MacDonald's 'Phantastes': A Comparison - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

mark12_30 · 11-18-2006, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Those humans foolish enough to go into Fairy and then put themselves in danger of death, die in Fairyland, and do not return to Earthly life; it's just not the way it works. So the upshot is that the book is either supremely dissatisfying, or must be rejected (or at least criticized) as portraying a falsehood as to what Fairy is.

Spoken with the certainty of experience.

So Faery can have neither "waterboarding" nor "near-death experiences" or "out-of-body-experiences" for any reason whatsoever-- even if you are sent there (instead of stumbling there) to learn a specific set of lessons for a specific set of reasons?

I thought the original Faery Grandmother/ Godmother/ Lady Of The Desk had more of a doom/destiny/purifying air about her. IMO, Anodos was in for it, from day one.

Smith had a different reason for going.

littlemanpoet · 11-19-2006, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark12_30

So Faery can have neither "waterboarding" nor "near-death experiences" or "out-of-body-experiences" for any reason whatsoever-- even if you are sent there (instead of stumbling there) to learn a specific set of lessons for a specific set of reasons?

I thought the original Faery Grandmother/ Godmother/ Lady Of The Desk had more of a doom/destiny/purifying air about her. IMO, Anodos was in for it, from day one.

Okay, perhaps I was splitting hairs. The problem, then, is that he both dies and returns. That, I guess, is what I really find to be the failure in the book. You can't have it both ways in Faery, right?

mark12_30 · 11-19-2006, 01:14 PM

So are you saying that you can't both die and return in Rhode Island? What is it about Faerie that rules out returning from the dead? And if you've returned from the dead, why can't you return from Faerie? I don't understand your objection.

To me your argument-- if you die in Faerie you can't come back-- puts Faerie in charge of your mortality. Which would be like saying, if Frodo goes to the undying lands, he has to live forever. No; he's mortal; he's bound by Eru's plan for him.

So if Lazarus had died in Faerie, no raising allowed?

littlemanpoet · 11-19-2006, 09:37 PM

You're trying to conclude a general principle out of something I've said about the particular work known as Phantastes. I'm not willing to make a general principle out of it.

And I'm not entirely sure why it doesn't work that Anodos dies in Fairy and comes to life in "real life". Dreams do work that way, except that in a dream, the moment you die, not knowing what it's like on the other side, you immediately wake up. In contrast, Anodos actually experiences being dead, making the death state a part of his imagined reality, making death a part of Faery. The reader is left wondering if he really died. We are, as readers, expected to accept Anodos' words at face value, that he actually died in Faery and came to life, and that he can actually remember what he experienced in his Faery-death. Okay, maybe that's okay in this story. But I am still left dissatisfied. I'm not sure why. I'll have to think about this some more.

11-19-2006, 01:14 PM	#3
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	So are you saying that you can't both die and return in Rhode Island? What is it about Faerie that rules out returning from the dead? And if you've returned from the dead, why can't you return from Faerie? I don't understand your objection. To me your argument-- if you die in Faerie you can't come back-- puts Faerie in charge of your mortality. Which would be like saying, if Frodo goes to the undying lands, he has to live forever. No; he's mortal; he's bound by Eru's plan for him. So if Lazarus had died in Faerie, no raising allowed? __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

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11-19-2006, 09:37 PM	#4
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	You're trying to conclude a general principle out of something I've said about the particular work known as Phantastes. I'm not willing to make a general principle out of it. And I'm not entirely sure why it doesn't work that Anodos dies in Fairy and comes to life in "real life". Dreams do work that way, except that in a dream, the moment you die, not knowing what it's like on the other side, you immediately wake up. In contrast, Anodos actually experiences being dead, making the death state a part of his imagined reality, making death a part of Faery. The reader is left wondering if he really died. We are, as readers, expected to accept Anodos' words at face value, that he actually died in Faery and came to life, and that he can actually remember what he experienced in his Faery-death. Okay, maybe that's okay in this story. But I am still left dissatisfied. I'm not sure why. I'll have to think about this some more.