The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-21-2006, 01:23 AM   #1
doug*platypus
Delver in the Deep
 
doug*platypus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Aotearoa
Posts: 960
doug*platypus has just left Hobbiton.
Shield

Quote:
Mithadan

He didn't have the time to fix his little "inconsistencies"? I don't buy that.
Ah, but I didn't commit myself fully there. I stated that he lacked either the time or the inclination to explain everything away. You make a good case for him having the time available, so that leaves only the inclination.

Raynor has once again provided the right quote at the right time:
Quote:
Letter #131

What I intend to say is this: I cannot substantially alter the thing. I have finished it, it is 'off my mind': the labour has been colossal; and it must stand or fall, practically as it is.
This quote implies that there was some reluctance to revisit LOTR; this reluctance extending possibly even to the origins of some of the unexplained creatures contained within the book.

We know that Tolkien continued to work on his invented world after publication of LOTR. Why did he not choose to write complete back stories or creations for Bombadil, dragons and giants? Was it because he was too busy with the actual events of the First and Second Ages? Did the mystery elements of The Hobbit and LOTR get nudged aside, as the Professor was preoccupied? Or was it a conscious decision to leave the ambiguity as it was?
Quote:
Bilbo made mistakes or misinterpretations of what he saw and experienced. A lightning storm becomes Stone Giants. Howling wargs seem to be speaking. Gandalf (perhaps) paralyzes Trolls and Bilbo attributes this to the effect of the sun.
In defence of the original Mr Baggins, and The Hobbit, Gandalf also believed in the Stone Giants, saying that he would have to find a more or less decent giant to stop up the cave in which the dwarves and Bilbo were captured. And in FOTR, Aragorn tells the hobbits that it would be impossible for a troll to be abroad in the sunlight. Surely the lore of Gandalf and Aragorn is to be trusted? I would say they are almost as authoritative as the narrator himself? Dog waiters we may have a bit more of a struggle to reason with!
__________________
But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.
doug*platypus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2006, 10:50 AM   #2
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,521
Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
Quote:
Ah, but I didn't commit myself fully there. I stated that he lacked either the time or the inclination to explain everything away. You make a good case for him having the time available, so that leaves only the inclination.~Doug
I think you can even make a case for both. Probably earlier on in his life he had time to spend and work on everything. However, as he got older it seemed like he got rather bogged down with trying to 'answer' everything, saying that everybody wanted an answer for something. Also, as he got older his health began to decline. So, I think you can make a case for both. Here are a few related quotes:
Quote:
... while many like you demand maps, others wish for geological indications rather than places; many want Elvish grammars, phonologies, and specimens; some want metrics and prosodies.... Musicians want tunes, and musical notation; archaeologists want ceramics and metallurgy; botanists want a more accurate description of the mallorn, of elanor, niphredil, alfirin, mallos, and symbelmynë, historians want more details about the social and political structure of Gondor; general enquirers want information about the Wainriders, the Harad, Dwarvish origins, the Dead Men, the Beornings, and the missing two wizards (out of five).~Letter to H. Cotton Minchin
I don't think he ever lost a love for his books, but I do sense that he did get bogged down (and even tired) with consistently trying to answer everyone's questions about it. Compile that upon with his declining health. Consistently through Letters he responds with being 'sorry' for answering so late but his health didn't permit it...here are just a few:
Quote:
I am sorry for the long delay, I was unwell for some time, and then faced by a family laid low one by one by influenza.~Letter #9
Quote:
I have been unwell since I last saw you – in fact I reached the edge of a breakdown, and was ordered by the doctor to stop short. I have done nothing for a week or two – being in fact quite unable.~Letter #33
Quote:
I have worked under difficulties of all kinds, including ill-health.~Letter #35
These are all around the age of when Tolkien was in his fourties, and by much later his health gets dramatically worse:
Quote:
I am (temporarily, I hope) deprived of the use of my right hand and arm….~Letter #245
Quote:
I have been ill, and am still suffering from rheumatism in my right arm…~Letter #247
His publishers Rayner Unwin and George Allen also noticed the health of his wife may have contributed to part of the problem:
Quote:
Even more distracting was the declining health of his wife….It was Edith’s ill-health that precipitated their move from Holywell to the ‘high dry soil’ of Headington in 1953, and later in 1968 to Bournemouth. But even there arthritis and other illnesses continued to afflict her. She was in hospital in 1958. Soon after coming out she broke her arm, and two years later she was back in hospital again~Allen & Unwin A Rememberence Chapter
With all that being said. I don't necessarily think that him not finishing things was completely due to a lack of time, or a lack of inclination. I do see what Mithadan is saying in that I think some things he left purposefully unanswered to put out in the public and see how the public viewed his books:
Quote:
Practically speaking of course, none of the Matter of Middle-earth was ';finished'; but continued to evolve, and was open to second thoughts while Tolkien lived.~The Development of Tolkien's Legendarium
Quote:
Of course the L.R. does not belong to me. It has been brought forth and must now go its appointed way in the world, though naturally I take a deep interest in its fortunes , as a person would of a child.~Letter #328
So, there definitely seems to be not just one specific defined answer, but several. Some things he wanted to purposefully leave unanswered (I think perhaps Tom Bombadil is the best example). Also, there were the problems of his health which contributed to a lack of time and a lack of inclination.
__________________
Fenris Penguin
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2006, 12:08 PM   #3
Durelin
Estelo dagnir, Melo ring
 
Durelin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,063
Durelin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Durelin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
I started on this response yesterday and finished it only today, so it might seem a little disjointed. Also, I started it before any of the major Letters and HoME (and the like) quotage, so it's all my speculation...and I'm going back to good ol' Tom.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithadan
LoTR? Written by Frodo. More wordly and better educated. But still a Hobbit and subject to the flaws of a Hobbit's interpetation of matters beyond his experience.
And so Frodo's description of Tom Bombadil is from his experience, and can be nothing more. From the way he is described we can tell that Frodo had the utmost reverence for Tom, and was obviously mystified by him. So I suppose he would not bother even speculating who/what Tom was: likely he thought it unnecessary.

But is it just Frodo who thought it unnecessary, or did Tolkien see it as such, as well? I expect he probably did.

I think Tolkien really wanted to keep people from getting too settled into Middle-earth. He wanted it to be entertainingly fantastical, and not stop tugging at the strings of our imagination. First he gets us all settled in with this idea of Hobbits. Then he throws in things like Elves, 'moving trees,' a magical Ring, a Dark Lord... We start off 'being with' Hobbits, which are really rather familiar to us, and we learn about all these things that are far from really familiar to us through them. Next thing, we experience the first meeting of the Ringwraiths with Frodo. We experience Elves for the first time.

But with all of this dark stuff: the Ringwraiths, the Ring, a Dark Lord, a scary forest, one very nasty tree, and overall a very unfortunate situation for Frodo, there seems to be very little light. All of the power seems to be on the side of all the dark stuff, while on the side of light there are just a few Hobbits - even the Wizard is nowhere to be found. Tom Bombadil shows up at such a perfect moment, and shows us the power of good in Middle-earth just as blatantly as Sauron and the Ring show us the power of evil. Just when the Hobbits are pretty much literally swallowed up, by darkness you could say, this mysterious Tom enters.
Durelin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2006, 01:03 PM   #4
Raynor
Eagle of the Star
 
Raynor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
Raynor has just left Hobbiton.
Here is the quote concerning the legacy Tolkien left for others to complete his work (well, he at least intended that initially):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letter #131
I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama.
Quote:
More wordly and better educated
Then again, Tolkien did note (and perhaps regret) the difference between his two works
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letter #125
After all the understanding was that you would welcome a sequel to The Hobbit, and this work can not be regarded as such in any practical sense, or in the matter of atmosphere, tone, or audience addressed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letter #131
The generally different tone and style of The Hobbit is due, in point of genesis, to it being taken by me as a matter from the great cycle susceptible of treatment as a 'fairy-story', for children. Some of the details of tone and treatment are, I now think, even on that basis, mistaken. But I should not wish to change much. For in effect this is a study of simple ordinary man, neither artistic nor noble and heroic (but not without the undeveloped seeds of these things) against a high setting — and in fact (as a critic has perceived) the tone and style change with the Hobbit's development, passing from fairy-tale to the noble and high and relapsing with the return.
Quote:
But still a Hobbit and subject to the flaws of a Hobbit's interpetation of matters beyond his experience.
If I interpret the LotR Prologue correctly, LotR is actually an improved Thain's Book, (itself a copy after the Red Book kept at the Undertowers, the home of the Fairbairns, Wardens of the Westmarch, and it received "many corrections" in Gondor. These corrections probably eliminated the inconsistencies that appeared due to the peculiar skill (or lack thereof) of the hobbits in writting down the events. I would also note that in Letter #168 the following meaning of Frodo is given:
Quote:
Frodo is a real name from the Germanic tradition. Its Old English form was Froda. Its obvious connexion is with the old word frod meaning etymologically 'wise by experience', but it had mythological connexions with legends of the Golden Age in the North.
Of Merry we know that he also received wisdom from his experience with evil:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The houses of healing, RotK
But these evils can be amended, so strong and gay a spirit is in him. His grief he will not forget; but it will not darken his heart, it will teach him wisdom.
So, all in all, Frodo's more terrible experiences, the bearing of the ring, and the wound he received, helped him mature more quickly, and write a better work at an earlier age than Bilbo:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letter #153
Suffering and experience (and possibly the Ring itself) gave Frodo more insight; and you will read in Ch. I of Book VI the words to Sam.
Quote:
So I suppose he would not bother even speculating who/what Tom was: likely he thought it unnecessary.
He did question Goldberry about who Tom is, although her answer, "he is", left many people wondering whether Tom is Eru, but Tolkien rejected this particular idea firmly:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letter #153
[Peter Hastings cited the description of Bombadil by Goldberry: 'He is.' Hastings said that this seemed to imply that Bombadil was God. ]
...
As for Tom Bombadil, I really do think you are being too serious, besides missing the point.
__________________
"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free."
Raynor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2006, 01:20 PM   #5
Estelyn Telcontar
Princess of Skwerlz
 
Estelyn Telcontar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!
In my opinion, Tolkien himself wanted the enigmas to stay enigmatic - even to and for himself! Do you think he had all of the background figured out and just chose to keep that information from his readers on purpose? Boro has a point with JRRT's inability to resolve some of the mysteries due to health problems later in life, but I propose that he did not want to cut the ball open so that it would not lose its bounce for him. Or, to speak with Gandalf:
Quote:
...he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.
I suggest that Tolkien wanted to keep at least a bit of Faery's mystery for himself.
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'
Estelyn Telcontar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2006, 03:15 PM   #6
Lalwendë
A Mere Boggart
 
Lalwendë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
There's three answers here that are all in part correct. Firstly Raynor says that Tolkien included characters such as Tom to add 'depth', then Boro says it was due to Tolkien having less time to devote to his work, and finally there is Esty's answer that it all adds mystery.

Tolkien did indeed have less and less time to his work as he grew older. Remember he was an academic with a large family, and was not a high earner. From reading the new Companion & Guide I've been horrified to learn just how hard he did work in his middle age just to keep his family fed, clothed and housed. He was on a relatively low wage and had to accept all kinds of work external to his University work, including marking school exam papers and even civil service entrance exam papers. He was on a multitude of committees, and took a full part in the life of Oxford, even acting the part of Chaucer in the Summer revels, and was a fully active 'family man', doing DIY and all the rest of it. Most of Lord of the Rings was written in the early hours of the night.

Even after retirement he found little time for writing, he had the business side of being a writer to deal with, including answering countless letters, and his health was not good, nor was Edith's. Middle-earth often came very low down on his list of priorities and this seems to have been a source of great frustration. If he did leave things such as Tom in accidentally as inconsistencies then I'm surprised there aren't in fact more and its testament to his meticulousness.

But characters such as Tom also add in depth as Raynor has brought up. Any real mythology has odd instances such as Tom or Ungoliant. Step inside Middle-earth for a moment and only Eru knows why they are there. The rough and fuzzy edges are what separate Tolkien from his vastly inferior imitators who wish to have everything 'categorised' and neatly put into boxes like Art is just some dreary dull 'science' or computer programme. The urge to put everything in Tolkien's work into defined sections is no better than the urge to file documents. I like to think Tolkien did it on purpose just to fox us all and stop us doing exactly that kind of thing. You cannot do this with the real world, and you cannot do it in Tolkien's world. Never will be able to either, as he is now gone.

Finally as Esty says, do we really want it all to be neatly squared off anyway? How boring would it all be then?! Mystery is beautiful...
__________________
Gordon's alive!
Lalwendë is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2006, 03:26 AM   #7
Estelyn Telcontar
Princess of Skwerlz
 
Estelyn Telcontar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!
Yes, all of those reasons do apply. My thoughts are more concerned with the role of the author and his created universe. Wouldn't it be just as boring to know everything about your own invented universe as it would be to have nothing left to discover in this world/universe?! I think Tolkien needed some mystery left for himself, to keep his own interest in Middle-earth alive.

He wrote about that in 'Leaf' by Niggle. While alive, Niggle never was able to finish his painting - there was always something more to be seen at the edges or beyond the main tree. And after his death, when he encounters the real tree, there is time to complete his vision - but when he is done there, he moves on to discover new vistas.
Quote:
Even little Niggle in his old home could glimpse the Mountains far away, and they got into the borders of his picture; but what they are really like, and what lies beyond them only those can say who have climbed them.
Interestingly, C. S. Lewis ends his Narnia books with a similar concept: "Further up and further in!" There is always more to discover, not only for us readers, but for the author himself. Knowing what we do of Tolkien, we can assume that he was content to leave some mysteries unsolved even to himself.
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'
Estelyn Telcontar is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:17 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.