LotR3-RotK-Seq13 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

***Mister Underhill*** · 11-23-2006, 12:38 PM

I'm thinking double-stick tape.

Nogrod · 11-23-2006, 01:51 PM

There is something in this affair of Denethor's pyre and indeed most of all concerning Denethor that I think PJ kind of oversimplifies and caricatures.

When I read the book, I see both Boromir and his father as remnants of something like the age of classical virtues and human courage disenchanted from magic or unawaited kicks of luck - not to mention any benevolent powers above the understanding of men. Like Romans, in a sense. Wanting to be buried "as the heathen kings of old" just affirms this interpretation.

In the movie Boromir is taken by the lust of power and the lure of force (aided by the Ring, surely), but Denethor is just a wicked, unjust and selfish steward going mad. In the book his downfall was furthered by the "knowledge" he had from the Palantir, but here we see little of it. So just a madman?

Somehow in the book there is one kind of courage and nobleness in their behaviour, but in the movies they, at least Denethor, seem to be just examples of wrongly-thinking losers.

Essex · 12-11-2006, 10:08 AM

You realise just how much PJ loves Middle-earth when you see Rath Dinen. The quality of the workmanship in the tombs is just breathtaking. To put all that effort in to a few minutes of screen time shows the love and care PJ has for this material. Yes, he has his own ideas on what constitues an adaption of book form to movie form and we can all agree and disagree on how well he has done this, but the level of detail and craftmenship on these films cannot be denied, surely....

PS I agree somewhat about Denethor's portrayal not being correct. If we could have at least seen the palntir, esp. in the EE. but alas, no. I still view the movie as Denethor DOES have the palantir and is driven mad by it, it's just that we don't see it.....

But I do believe that Jacskon got Boromir spot on character wise. Petulant, childish, heroic, patriotic and blinkered........

PS Gandalf's look as the trolls come through the gate - now THAT look might have worked better when he was confronted by the witch king................

alatar · 12-15-2006, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essex

PS Gandalf's look as the trolls come through the gate - now THAT look might have worked better when he was confronted by the witch king................

What still kills me is how quickly the Army of Darkness gains the Gate. My daughter and I were watching Xena this morning, and the episode dealt with the Battle of Thermopylae. Xena single-handedly holds off the attacking Persians, littering the landscape with dead until the invaders think better of visiting Greece. Not exactly sure that that was 'history,'

but the movie The 300 may be a somewhat closer retelling of the event in 480 BC where a small group of determined soldiers held off a large force, using the narrow road to extreme advantage.

Think that the Americans have the 'Alamo.'

Anyway, so seeing these examples it irks me that PJ, via the Gondorian soldiers under Gandalf's command, didn't fill the Grond-broken gate with troll and orc dead. Even if it only gave a moments pause - Gothmog could have had Grond swing one more time, pushing the carcasses out of the way - it would have at least made Gandalf and the Gondorians somewhat competent. PJ could then continue with his 'desperate situation' portrayal, but I would then at least not thought the defense impotent.

Thoughts?

Elladan and Elrohir · 12-15-2006, 02:53 PM

Well, PJ doesn't generally portray competent soldiers. His Last Alliance dudes do pretty well till Sauron shows up, but the Helm's Deep dads-n-lads are pathetic, and the Gondorians in this film aren't much better. Even his flashy Lorien Elves all die in the Deep.

I wonder if this was to compensate for the fact that out of all his heroes, only three die and one of those comes back to life.

alatar · 12-15-2006, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elladan and Elrohir

Well, PJ doesn't generally portray competent soldiers. His Last Alliance dudes do pretty well till Sauron shows up, but the Helm's Deep dads-n-lads are pathetic, and the Gondorians in this film aren't much better. Even his flashy Lorien Elves all die in the Deep.

I wonder if this was to compensate for the fact that out of all his heroes, only three die and one of those comes back to life.

I really think that PJ had two things in mind - to keep the 'main cast' number as small as possible, and to increase the 'value' of said heroes such as Aragorn. Look at Eomer - he, I guess, had to be included, but so far, just what has he done? Why does he, becoming King, follow Aragorn into Mordor? These two aren't the brothers that we see in the books. And missing are Erkenbrand and Imrahil.

And, as you all well know, I think that Gandalf was deliberately shown in a lesser light in order to exalt Aragorn.

Essex · 12-17-2006, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

Anyway, so seeing these examples it irks me that PJ, via the Gondorian soldiers under Gandalf's command, didn't fill the Grond-broken gate with troll and orc dead......

Thoughts?

Well, Tolkien did not have this, so I am happy that PJ didn't either. I'm sure if we DID have this, Tolkien 'purists' would be gnashing their teeth and complaing!

alatar · 12-19-2006, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essex

Well, Tolkien did not have this, so I am happy that PJ didn't either. I'm sure if we DID have this, Tolkien 'purists' would be gnashing their teeth and complaing!

You don't need the purists - I can always find some about which to complain (it's a gift

). We could have stayed true to the book and not allowed the enemy to enter the Gate (by killing them all there), but then the ever vaunted tension wouldn't be increased, and the film would subsequently have flopped.

Could PJ have kept the enemy from inside Minas Tirith yet still evoked the same feeling of despair (like when the soldiers, women and children are running from the enemy)? Ideas?

Essex · 12-19-2006, 10:23 AM

uh oh - I must hold my hands up and admit I'd forgotten (well never realised to be honest) that as the Gate was broken the City was not besieged......

I've been frantically leafing through my old copy of ROTK. And you live and learn! Only the Witch King made it through.

That is a bit funny though, seing as the Orcs had used Grond to break down the Gate and then did not make thier way through into the City, especially as the WK had frightened everyone off from the vicinity of the Gate (and Gandalf had run off to aid Faramir)

mmmmmmmm.......... Plot hole perhaps?

11-23-2006, 01:51 PM	#2
Nogrod Flame of the Ainulindalë Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves Posts: 9,308	There is something in this affair of Denethor's pyre and indeed most of all concerning Denethor that I think PJ kind of oversimplifies and caricatures. When I read the book, I see both Boromir and his father as remnants of something like the age of classical virtues and human courage disenchanted from magic or unawaited kicks of luck - not to mention any benevolent powers above the understanding of men. Like Romans, in a sense. Wanting to be buried "as the heathen kings of old" just affirms this interpretation. In the movie Boromir is taken by the lust of power and the lure of force (aided by the Ring, surely), but Denethor is just a wicked, unjust and selfish steward going mad. In the book his downfall was furthered by the "knowledge" he had from the Palantir, but here we see little of it. So just a madman? Somehow in the book there is one kind of courage and nobleness in their behaviour, but in the movies they, at least Denethor, seem to be just examples of wrongly-thinking losers. __________________ Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet...

12-15-2006, 02:53 PM	#5
Elladan and Elrohir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Halls of Mandos Posts: 332	Well, PJ doesn't generally portray competent soldiers. His Last Alliance dudes do pretty well till Sauron shows up, but the Helm's Deep dads-n-lads are pathetic, and the Gondorians in this film aren't much better. Even his flashy Lorien Elves all die in the Deep. I wonder if this was to compensate for the fact that out of all his heroes, only three die and one of those comes back to life. __________________ "If you're referring to the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door." THE HOBBIT - IT'S COMING

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11-23-2006, 12:38 PM	#1
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,744	I'm thinking double-stick tape.

12-11-2006, 10:08 AM	#3
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 886	You realise just how much PJ loves Middle-earth when you see Rath Dinen. The quality of the workmanship in the tombs is just breathtaking. To put all that effort in to a few minutes of screen time shows the love and care PJ has for this material. Yes, he has his own ideas on what constitues an adaption of book form to movie form and we can all agree and disagree on how well he has done this, but the level of detail and craftmenship on these films cannot be denied, surely.... PS I agree somewhat about Denethor's portrayal not being correct. If we could have at least seen the palntir, esp. in the EE. but alas, no. I still view the movie as Denethor DOES have the palantir and is driven mad by it, it's just that we don't see it..... But I do believe that Jacskon got Boromir spot on character wise. Petulant, childish, heroic, patriotic and blinkered........ PS Gandalf's look as the trolls come through the gate - now THAT look might have worked better when he was confronted by the witch king................

12-19-2006, 10:23 AM	#9
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 886	uh oh - I must hold my hands up and admit I'd forgotten (well never realised to be honest) that as the Gate was broken the City was not besieged...... I've been frantically leafing through my old copy of ROTK. And you live and learn! Only the Witch King made it through. That is a bit funny though, seing as the Orcs had used Grond to break down the Gate and then did not make thier way through into the City, especially as the WK had frightened everyone off from the vicinity of the Gate (and Gandalf had run off to aid Faramir) mmmmmmmm.......... Plot hole perhaps?