Most Tragic Moment?

[Folwren]

What you say, Bethberry, reminds me of the part in the book when Pippin first sees Eowyn dressed as a man and when she looks up with the look in her eye of one searching for death. . .don't know why it reminds me of that part, but that was rather tragic.

-- Folwren

[doug*platypus]

If we're talking about LOTR, then I think that Frodo's failure to find healing on his return to the Shire is tragic:

On the thirteenth of that month Farmer Cotton found Frodo lying on his bed; he was clutching a white gem that hung on a chain about his neck and he seemed half in a dream. "It is gone for ever," he said, "and now all is dark and empty."

But the most tragic IMHO is the fall of Saruman from wise and noble head of the White Council to a beggar in the wilderness, without home or means to survive. Of course, his later deeds in the Shire make me feel less pity for him!

If we're talking about all of Tolkien's books, then The Silmarillion is tragerama! Page after page of sorrow and loss! Most tragic in all the books, I would say, is Fingolfin's vain attempt to take Morgoth down in single combat.

Then Fingolfin beheld (as it seemed to him) the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him.

Although, if anyone were to argue that Túrin's life story were more tragic, I could not say much in way of argument.

[Thinlómien]

Definitely the few last phrases of Quenta Silmarillion. *sniff*

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Folwren

What you say, Bethberry, reminds me of the part in the book when Pippin first sees Eowyn dressed as a man and when she looks up with the look in her eye of one searching for death. . .don't know why it reminds me of that part, but that was rather tragic.

-- Folwren

Hmm, yes. Tolkien's depiction of women was rather tragic, eh?

[Aaron]

Not really. I never felt an ounce of pity for Eowyn, Arwen meanwhile truly was doomed but it was a doom created by her own ignorance. Surely no intelligent person would give up immortality? That is the problem when one is governed by the heart and not the head.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Aaron

Not really. I never felt an ounce of pity for Eowyn, Arwen meanwhile truly was doomed but it was a doom created by her own ignorance. Surely no intelligent person would give up immortality? That is the problem when one is governed by the heart and not the head.

Oh, you romantic...
And after all, what does one's life mean when he has nothing to live for? Literally, you can preserve immortality, but "dwell in the dimming world...", in the material way, you might be immortal, but actually, you are not alive anymore. Your *real* life is gone, and how do you get it back?

And the most tragic moment? I'd consider before I say "tragic" that there are few really "tragic" moments in Tolkien's work - both LotR and Sil are much rather, as said by d*p up there, "full of sorrow on each page" (well, maybe not each, but mostly) - but this is, in most cases, compensated by joy, happiness, or just a blink of hope, which makes all the sorrowful things seem in some other light even beautiful: beautiful and sad, that is I think the best description for all LotR. Even Fingolfin's death, much like Maedhros' rescue by Fingon, have glimpses of joy in them: in case of Fingolfin, there is his bravery and what he was able to do before he died: he hurt Morgoth seven times. And even then, you see, his body was not left to rot dishonorably in Angband (or worse), but it was taken out by the Eagles. I should mention that I associate Fingolfin's death with one similar moment, which I consider similar weight, but it is not from Silmarillion nor from LotR: it is the death of Thorin Oakenshield, as mentioned by Volo. His last speech to Bilbo is a moment which would make me cry, as much as it did move Bilbo. And Maedhros and Fingon - this is a beautiful example of restoring friendship, and of a friendship stronger than anything, although the picture of the beautiful and gifted Noldo being tortured by tying him up there on Thangorodrim and then having to get his arm cut by his best friend is rather tragic, it is one of the strongest moments of all for me.

Bethberry, you are right about the women - taking not just Arwen, Eowyn, but even Entwives or Elladan,Elrohir&Arwen's mother Celebrían... women had never joyful fate in Tolkien's work. Not mentioning the Old Test.... eh, meaning Silmarillion women Finduilas, Nienor, Melian... Lúthien *ahem* we all know it...

But if I had to say if there were some whose fate was really tragic, REALLY TRAGIC, without any compensation for their suffering, or at least which I consider not to have died by such a heroic death, you know, those who were not celebrated at least in their death, I'd say Túrin Turambar.

[Thinlómien]

I second... wait, third... the death of Thorin. It had been a long time since I had last read the Hobbit when I reread it this spring and I did cry while reading his death and last words to Bilbo. It's truly a moving scene.

If tragicness (???) is measured in when do I cry when I read the books, Gollum's glimpse of his old good self in Cirith Ungol and Sam banishing it is one for sure.

Théoden's death is also one of those moments. I don't know if it should be tragic, but sad. After all, he was an old man and his fate was fulfilled and he left the world the way he wanted and when he had no objections to death. I always think "tragic" is something that should not happen, it's not "right" and sad, but "wrong" and sad. Thus, Théoden's death is not a tragic moment, but just a sad moment full of grief.

[calandil]

frodo's final parting from middle earth.just when they all thought that their work was done,its time for heartache again!!

also faramir's rememberance of his brother whom he so dearly loved

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I don't see Frodo being taken by orcs as anything tragic, the same goes for everything happening around that time. For me it worked as a "cliff-hanger" It was exitment not sadnessed I felt.

I must say that I am quite the opposite of Aaron, I never really felt any pitty for Arwen, she made a choise and I am sure it was the right thing for her and that she was happy with that choise.

Eowyn on the other hand I did feel a bit pitty for, her "doom" was not really of her own making.

The most tragic thing I can think of right now, is when Hurin and Morwen meet and realises that their children are dead. It brought a tear to my eye when I re-read the Sil this summer.

[Child of the 7th Age]

If you were to ask me what scene in LotR was most likely to make me personally sad, I would have said the moment of Frodo's departure from the Grey Havens. There is such a hard necessity in that scene. He has been hurt so badly, and there is nothing he or his friends can do to allow him to stay within the Shire, although the Shire was the whole reason he undertook the quest.

But this question is a little different. We're talking about the "most tragic" part of the books as a whole, which I assume includes the whole of Tolkien's subcreation. To me these words sum up the tragedy of Tolkien's world.

Men may sail now West, if they will, as far as they may, and come no nearer to Valinor or the Blessed Realm, but return only into the east and so back again; for the world is round and finite, and a circle inescapable---save by death. Only the "immortals", the lingering Elves, may still if they will, wearying of the circle of the world, take ship and find the 'straight way', and come to the ancient or True West, and be at peace.

And it is not just the men of Arda who are pulled into this tragedy. It's us as well. There's that sense of standing on the shore with Sam and watching Frodo's boat disappear over the horison but there is nothing you can do to bridge that gap. Something is gone from the world when you come to the end of LotR. Long before, men had lost the chance to sail to the Blessed Lands and now even the Elves depart from the shores of Middle-earth.

Man's doom is not easy. There's so much we don't know and can only guess at. Even Tolkien with all his faith expresses that in his personal letters. Some readers express that loss in their own lives in terms of religion, while others speak of the withdrawal of faerie. But whatever that sadness signifies for each of us, there is an implacable sense that something is missing. At the end of the book I am not only grieving for Frodo's loss, but also for my own.

**********

Nogrod -- I think you and I are saying the same thing in different ways.....

[Bêthberry]

About Tolkien's women, there are, indeed, many meanings of 'tragic', as Legate has suggested.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But if I had to say if there were some whose fate was really tragic, REALLY TRAGIC, without any compensation for their suffering, or at least which I consider not to have died by such a heroic death, you know, those who were not celebrated at least in their death, I'd say Túrin Turambar.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

A most tragic individual fate: Turin Turambar

Turin surely is Tolkien's classic tragic hero, undeserving of the terrible fate meted out to him.

Originally Posted by Child

We're talking about the "most tragic" part of the books as a whole, which I assume includes the whole of Tolkien's subcreation. To me these words sum up the tragedy of Tolkien's world.

And it is not just the men of Arda who are pulled into this tragedy. It's us as well. There's that sense of standing on the shore with Sam and watching Frodo's boat set sail and disappear over the horison but there is nothing you can do to join him. Something is gone from the world, when you come to the end of LotR. Long before, men had lost the chance to sail to the Blessed Lands and now even the Elves depart the shores of Middle-earth. Men are left behind, and there is no way to close that gap.

If we consider the meaning of tragic which pertains to Turin, does this meaning apply to this situation which Child has poignantly described? What is it about Eru's creation that has to fall short of its perfection?

Tolkien seems to have explored many of the word's meanings.

[Thinlómien]

I think some of us, me especially, are mixing up the words "tragic" and "moving"...

[Aaron]

Isn't it odd that although Sams sharp words destroy Gollum's chance of redemption people still beleive him to be "good"?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I think some of us, me especially, are mixing up the words "tragic" and "moving"...

The argument can be made that words mean what the people who use them intend them to mean, Thin, 'cause that's how words change meanings.

Besides, I think several of us have been working with different meanings.