For girls and ladies only!

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

No, not the fact of a ceremony, it seems that Tolkien is saying they did not have to have a ceremony at all, that the very act of sleeping with someone formed a marriage, so long as they mentioned the names of Varda, Manwe and Eru as they got on with it. ...... and if I am not mistaken, at one time non-consummation of a relationship was acceptable reason for a fully endorsed divorce? I think Henry VIII divorced Anne of Cleves quickly for this very reason.

Oh Lal I think the vows were at the feast before not during..... at least I hope so.....!!!!! That would be a bit weird but reminds me of a very rude joke .

Non-consummation is still grounds for annulment ... and ...well I remember quite an interesting case a few years ago regarding the validity of a Catholic marriage .. but if you want to know about that PM ....

[Lalwendë]

I suspect the choice of white came about in Victorian times for dresses more as a symbol of wealth and status - a family announcing that they had enough money to splash out on a thoroughly impractical item of clothing that could not be used again, and possibly as a 'sign' of how delicate and precious their dear daughter was (i.e. not the type who'd get it covered in dirt in the kitchen, nor the type to go and get tell-tale grass stains on her frock ).

There is a 'public declaration' before marriage in the UK - banns must be published and read out on Sundays for three weeks in advance of a church marriage, and for a civil marriage the names of the couple must be published on the notice board in the registry office for 21 days in advance of the date. Prevents 'Britney style' weddings...

It was the act of bodily union that achieved marriage, and after which the indissoluble bond was complete. In happy days and times of peace it was held ungracious and contemptuous of kin to forgo the ceremonies, but it was at all times lawful for any of the Eldar, both bein unwed, to marry thus of free consent on to another without ceremony or witness (save blessings exhanged and the naming of the Name); and the union so joined was alike indissoluble

Now, tell me I have a warped mind if needs must , but I know what that looks like. It looks to me like sleeping together was the actual act that caused two Elves to 'be married' (as opposed to taking rings or signing a book) and they could forgo the ceremony if necessary. Just so long as they said their blessings. Eol and Aredhel must have married in this way, as I don't remember any other Elves being around in his woods.

Saves money anyway...

[Mithalwen]

Yes...it would have been ... though that case is problematic since there was a suggestion that Eol in some versions had taken her by force... however the forgoing of hte ceremonies certainly annoyed the relatives...

There is a foot note to LACE that states that Beren and Luthien could have contracted a legal marriage in the wilds but that it was a matter of honour to respect Thingol's conditions.

Those of us of a certain age who remember the omnipresent "Princess Di" haircut will find it only too easy to believe that Queen Victoria's choice of dress would have started a longlasting fashion ...so many "old english traditions" hail from her time.

Of course elves would have no particular need to have wedding clothes symbolising purity since they were by definition pure....

[Folwren]

Oh, gosh, that idea seems sickeningly grotesque to me. I rather like the idea of ceremony first.... Leastways, I always thought better of the elves.

Aaannnyyyy way, I think the topic wandered down a road I am not comfortable with. Now that we are aware that there was at least some sort of ceremony for weddings (regardless of whether it was before or after the act of acting like man and wife), can we not speculate that they might have worn a new dress of some sort? Surely they would have! It is, after all, a special occasion.

-- Folwren

P.S. Mith, I will find those parts in the bible that it mentions white, and the bride, and purity, and will PM them to you.

[Mithalwen]

Well I wouldn't let it upset you Folwren, I read it that the vows were the essential part of the ceremony - as they are now, and that the act of union was the consummation ie "completion" - as is regarded by the Catholic church now. I think LACE is perhaps the most Catholic of all Tolkiens writings on Middle Earth. I don't know what "better" you can ask of the Elves than making a binding and indisoluble commitment to one other person for ever - and ever being the duration of the world. If you read LACE it is clear that Elves are not dominated by desires of the flesh and the physical union is a means to complete spiritual union. I guess that is the danger of quoting only part a text.... Ideally the vows are exchanged in the presence of their families but this is not essential. I suppose the absence of witnesses and a "priest" seems odd to us but since the elves could't deceive another elf as to their marital status (also in LACE I think) witnesses weren't necessary and there were no priests. The Quakers have extremely simple marriage services (and no priests) , the couple make this simple vow to each other.

" Friends, I take this my friend, (name), to be my husband/wife, promising, through Divine assistance , to be unto him/her a loving and faithful husband/wife, so long as we both on earth shall live."


That I would guess is probably as close as you would get to day to Elvish practice.

Oh I said in my first post that I thought a new dress but worn after was my best guess I do like your idea of being married in a wood though a beech one would be more elven and beechwoods are like outdoor cathedrals. Although there are far fewer restrictions on wedding locations here now I don't think you can get married in an open space which is rather sad.

I also agree with you about wedding dress designs - maybe it is my age or my mother's influence but I don't think bare shoulders are appropriate for church weddings (and english churches are a bit chilly even in summer) and think those evening dress styles need a little jacket or at least a wrap for the service ..they are also a bit too structured for my idea of elvish dress. I can't imagine an elf wearing a "boned" dress - it seems against their nature to be so restricted and lucky things dont need the structure to restrain or support...

I do think the films did quite well on the frock front - I went to the LOTR exhibition and Galadriel's beaded dress really did seem to emanate light - quite lovely and they had Arwen's blue velvet with silver underdress which was good too though the neckline looked a bit too wide in the film... I wish they would do another exhibition with the later costumes in since I would have loved to see Eowyn's clothes and jewellery too. I think that the Elves would favour lighter, floatier fabric, maybe with embroidery, whereas the gondorians might go for heavier, richer fabric like velvet and brocade, damask silk - more renaissance style/late medieaval. Rohan I do see as more Anglo Saxon/early medieaval - a bit like the Queen Mother's wedding dress. Hobbits being simpler folk - shepherdess / milkmaid styles and their love of bright colour might mean that green and yellow might have been the preferred hues.

Also need to bear in mind that they might have been more limited in the choice of fabrics - linen and wool only maybe - and dyes. Many colours have only relatively recently become available due to modern chemical processes. Some colours such as deep red, purple and true white and black were extremely expensive. Use of teh more expensive colours would be a status symbol perhaps. Poorer folk would have to make do with the coulours obtainable from plants.


I imagine Hobbits would have worn flowers in their hair and many elves too - though they might wear diadems /tiara type headdresses . Wearing a jewel on a filet on the brow is a possibility too - like Erendis. Elvish dresses may have been designed to set off the jewellery given as a wedding gifts which presumably were worn at the ceremony.

History

[FeRaL sHaDoW]

im srry im not a girl or a ladie but i had to say this. wouldent it be cool if your wedding dress was based on the witch king of angmar???

*edit

srry forget what i said.

[shieldmaiden4xsword]

umm.... i can't imagine how that would look.