I Found the Entwives!

[Ardamir the Blessed]

The Saucepan Man and Boromir88 have given more interesting things to ponder. I would like to point out that my theory is separate from Teleporno's 'joke' (the 'joke' might of course be hidden in the passages I have used), but I do not think it is less interesting.


I forgot a few important points concerning my theory.

An oft-ignored fact is that Treebeard states that at the end of the Second Age, some people said that they had seen the Entwives going west, some said east, and others south from the Brown Lands after Sauron burned their gardens:

LR, ‘Treebeard’:

… we [Ents] asked all folk that we met which way the Entwives had gone. Some said they had never seen them; and some said that they had seen them walking away west, and some said east, and others south.

This could provide valuable clues as to where the Entwives might be post-Brown Lands. Now, where could 'south' more specifically be?


The Saucepan Man mentioned the well known 'dryad loveliness' reference, and 'larches were green-fingered' in the description of the flora of Ithilien – this may also hint at the work of Entwives. The Ents and the Entwives slowly took the likeness of the trees they tended, and vice versa:

LR, ‘Treebeard’:

We are tree-herds, we old Ents. … Sheep get like shepherd, and shepherds like sheep, it is said; but slowly, and neither have long in the world. It is quicker and closer with trees and Ents …

We also have this passage in Letter #144:

They [the Entwives] survived only in the 'agriculture' transmitted to Men (and Hobbits).

Most people believe that this passage means that the Entwives' art of agriculture was transmitted to Men, but the Entwives themselves did not survive. However, the passage also fits rather well if one assumes that there were surviving Entwives in Ithilien practising agriculture, since Ithilien belonged to Gondor, a realm of Men.


It should also be mentioned that Treebeard describes the Ents as drinking of mountain-streams (the source of the Entwash is in the mountains):

LR, 'Treebeard':

...the Ents loved the great trees; and the wild woods, and the slopes of the high hills; and they drank of the mountain-streams ...

But the Entwives are not described as drinking of any streams. Perhaps it was only specific to the Ents to gather water in basins, not the Entwives? But I think it would be logical if the Entwives also had a need of great amounts of water.


Also, before Frodo, Sam and Gollum find the basin in Ithilien, they also encounter other handiworks:

LR, 'Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit':

The road had been made in a long lost time: and for perhaps thirty miles below the Morannon it had been newly repaired, but as it went south the wild encroached upon it. The handiwork of Men of old could still be seen in its straight sure flight and level course: now and again it cut its way through hillside slopes, or leaped over a stream upon a wide shapely arch of enduring masonry; but at last all signs of stonework faded, save for a broken pillar here and there, peering out of bushes at the side, or old paving-stones still lurking amid weeds and moss. Heather and trees and bracken scrambled down and overhung the banks, or sprawled out over the surface. It dwindled at last to a country cart-road little used; but it did not wind: it held on its own sure course and guided them by the swiftest way.

The road, the bridges, the pillars and the paving-stones – all were most likely the work of the Men of Gondor. Thus the basin could be that as well, especially since it is mentioned just a few paragraphs later, and maybe the flora was also planted and tended by the Men of Gondor. One should remember though, that

Letter #247:

The Ents thus had mastery over stone.

And there is a vague connection between the Ents and ancient, abandoned stoneworks – Tolkien got inspiration for them from giants erecting buildings in the Old English poem The Wanderer:

Letter #163:

They [the Ents] owe their name to the eald enta geweorc of Anglo-Saxon, and their connexion with stone [from the Old English poem The Wanderer, line 87: 'eald enta geweorc idlu stodon' = 'the old creations of giants (i.e. ancient buildings erected by a former race) stood desolate'].

However, I am wondering if the Númenóreans also come in here – they could perhaps also be termed 'giants' as they were the Men of the greatest stature, and they (or at least the Men of Gondor) are associated with stonework – Gondor even has the sense 'Stone-land' sc. 'Stone (-using people's) land' [Letter #324].

[Alcuin]

I have often wondered if this is what became not of the Entwives, but of some of their offspring, warped by Sauron. RotK, “Appendix F”, “Of Other Races”

...at the end of the Third Age a troll-race not before seen appeared in southern Mirkwood and in the mountain borders of Mordor. Olog-hai they were called in the Black Speech. That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known. Some held that they were not Trolls but giant Orcs; but the Olog-hai were in fashion of body and mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power. Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone. Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them. They spoke little, and the only tongue that they knew was the Black Speech of Barad-dûr.

In Morgoth’s Ring, “Myths Transformed”, Christopher Tolkien covers a number of his father’s writings on the origins of the Orcs which are not pertinent here, except that while Sauron might not have conceived the idea of Orcs, he was instrumental in their development, or at least in their breeding, particularly while Morgoth was imprisoned in Mandos: Sauron reconstructed Angband and saw to the proliferation of the Orcs. I am uncertain if Tolkien’s musing on trolls, “It seems clearly implied in The Lord of the Rings that trolls existed in their own right, but were ‘tinkered’ with by Melkor,” (op. cit., “VIII”) was what Tolkien thought about the matter for most of his post-LotR life, but it is likely that Sauron had a hand in whatever his master was doing in this matter as well.

The upshot: while Sauron might not be the “creator” (or more accurately, “prime corruptor”) of Orcs and Trolls, I think it was Tolkien’s consistent idea that he was involved in their primeval corruption. I don’t think it would be out of character for him to seek to corrupt the Entwives to his own nefarious purposes; however, I am far from certain that Prof. Tolkien would agree that they could be corrupted in this way. Besides, the Ents could “tear [up stone] like bread-crust” and “crumple … iron like thin tin.” (Two Towers, “Flotsam and Jetsam”) How would you keep them imprisoned, especially for the whole of the Third Age?

[Gothbogg the Ripper]

I honestly believe that the Entwives do not exist. Nor did Tolkien desire them to exist. We always thought of Treebeard as a friendly, humourous character but such thoughts are not in line with the bittersweet ending of LOTR. In order to flesh out his creation Tolkien added a tinge of tragedy to the tale. And in doing so further made us sympathise with a character other (lesser) writers would dismiss as "childish".

[Aaron]

Why do you have to be so logical about it? Would it be so hard to grab your copy of LOTR and try to find them? They were not just a means of making the Ents look good. Tolkien was a great writer and you can be sure that if he put them in there then they clearly serve some kind of purpose.

[Gothbogg the Ripper]

Pfft, it's better to be logical about these things rather than delude yourself. Tolkien had a great mind but he had to make "whole" characters. Without the Entwives this was not possible. Stop looking for clues like some bloody socialist. Go do something better with your time. I dunno, rescue a cat from a tree, stab a Roman dictator-for-life on March 15, write a threatening letter to a politician. The world is full of beauty! Stop wasting that beauty by searching for things that aren't real!

[the phantom]

Okay, time to respond to you silly unbelievers.

Originally Posted by me

And since we're dealing with such a show off, don't you think that if the ropes could be untied magically he would've done so?

Originally Posted by Ardamir

I am not that sure about this. Something tells me that the Elves would not have been so willing to show their magic explicitly.

Why? Elves don't consider their "magic" to be magic, do they? The things that we would call "magical" about them are simply natural abilities, the way walking and talking are for us.

And as I've already pointed out, Haldir quite obviously had no qualms about displaying his "magic" (the stunt on the rope).

If Lorien ropes could untie themselves in response to mental commands, Haldir would've done it.

That's the way it is. End of story.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

So there’s nothing in the Letters, nothing in the drafts, and nothing in the notes about the stump being an Entwife; in fact, Tolkien says on at least two separate occasions that he does not believe they will ever be found.

By us, or the Ents? There's a significant difference.

(Ah, I see that Sardy has also raised this point.)

You can claim that Tolkien shut the door on the matter, but by no means did he slam it shut and lock it.

Originally Posted by me

There was no need for the rope to be saved.

Originally Posted by Ardamir

They did have use of the rope later on, actually almost immediately afterwards - they tied Gollum with it.

Yeah, for what- about five seconds? Wow, that rope sure came in handy.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

The dangling rope was a means not only for Gollum to more easily follow them, but for him and any other pursuit – orcs or Nazgûl – to determine that the trail was hot.

Gollum found them anyway, without help from the rope. So don't name Gollum as a convincing reason.

As far as the off chance that an orc or Nazgul would find one single little rope in the middle of a huge wilderness, what's the big deal? What- do you think the Nazgul would think "Oh no! An elven rope! The One Ring must be close!" Obviously not. At the most, the Nazgul would think "Hmm... an elven rope. I wonder if some elf is trying to spy out our movements." Plus there would be no way to tell exactly how long the rope had been there.

Leaving the rope there on the cliff would most likely result in zero penalty for Sam and Frodo. So why not leave it?

Originally Posted by CS

I agree with those above who mentioned the idea that magic is linked in some mysterious way to divine Providence or intervention. It is fundamentally unpredictable and arises chiefly at need...

The rope was a waste of divine intervention, if you ask me. There was no "need".

Originally Posted by Gothbogg

I honestly believe that the Entwives do not exist.

Oh, and next you'll be telling us that you don't believe that Elves and Dwarves exist either, and that Tolkien just made all of this stuff up, and that his books should be placed in the Fantasy/Sci-Fi section.

Originally Posted by SPM

I am afraid, phantom, that I do not find your proposition convincing in the least. In a fantasy world like Middle-earth, I have no difficulty in believing that an Elven rope could “magically” untie itself if truly willed to do so by its bearer.

Yeah, and you're also the guy who believes he was just as good a reader when he was five years old as he is now.

Anyway, I'm sorry everyone, but you have not convinced me. And that, of course, makes you wrong.

Until JRRT himself posts on this thread and tells me I'm otherwise, I have found the Entwives.

Deal with it lads.

rescue a cat from a tree

That hardly sounds like a worthy and beneficial venture.

Tossing a cat up into a tree however......

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by TP

Why? Elves don't consider their "magic" to be magic, do they? The things that we would call "magical" about them are simply natural abilities, the way walking and talking are for us.

And as I've already pointed out, Haldir quite obviously had no qualms about displaying his "magic" (the stunt on the rope).

If Lorien ropes could untie themselves in response to mental commands, Haldir would've done it.

That's the way it is. End of story.

My good phantom, I am sure that you are well read in fantasy and fairytales and surely you must have come across magical items that only show their full potential when really needed to. . .

What I am saying is that it is intirely possible that the show off elves could not just make the rope untie it self. . . it is actually often the standard that magic is not used for everyday needs.