The atrocity of the Akallabêth

[Elmo]

Miriel was killed and she certainly didn't do anything wrong - her story is especially sad i find...

[Nogrod]

I guess all the pantheons of the world have had their mercifuls and cruel ones, the goodies and the baddies; the bringers of plenty and the bringers of doom and damnation. When reduced to just one God on certain cultures, that One has retained those conflicting characteristics. Just look at Yahweh (Jehova), Allah or even the christian God.

So Eru willing to drown all the Numenorians seems to be nothing new from the higher beings as all the enemies of Islam will perish in the end, the unchristians will face eternal damnation in the Last Judgement, all the people had to drown in Noah's flood and so on. The problem we see arising in here I think, is the protestantic interpretation of the God which partly (but only partly) leaves this other side of the coin behind and wishes to stick to the purely loving and good God. With this presupposition - and trying to see Eru as a christian God-like - we face a dilemma: how could Eru do that? If we stick to the traditional Gods we might answer: easily. But if we try to "modernise" (reads: clinging to the traditon of the enlightenment) our image of God will face these problems.

The interesting question to me follows as I try to think how Tolkien himself thought this. Was he thinking it along the lines of traditional religiousity where it was just right and good that the sins of the fathers were avenged to all in the lineage or did he indeed flirt with protestantism here trying to make the readers feel bad about that kind of judgement by Eru?

[Macalaure]

Miriel was killed and she certainly didn't do anything wrong - her story is especially sad i find...

You're right, it's a very sad story. Still, I don't hold her blameless. She did not resist Ar-Pharazôn and did nothing against the way Númenor went.

And last of all the mounting wave, green and cold and plumed with foam, climbing over the land, took to its bosom Tar-Míriel the Queen, fairer than silver or ivory or pearls. Too late she strove to ascend the steep ways of the Meneltarma to the holy place; for the waters overtook her, and her cry was lost in the roaring of the wind. ~Akallabêth

I'd say there's a fair amount of double sense in that line.

[Lalwendë]

Well seing as we cannot presume to know one man's relationship with God, how can we say for sure that Eru is Tolkien's own view of the real world 'God'? What we can say though is that this is the god he created for his secondary world and we have to work within and understand Eru within those boundaries first and foremost. And Eru is not always 'nice' by a long way. In fact, as he was the one who created Morgoth and it was Morgoth who then created the discordancies in the music that brought evil into the world, and Eru allowed it to hapen, he was not always 'nice' from the beginning.

If he was bringing any other aspects of 'god' into the text then I suggest a good place to start is to look at how that Northern literature dealt with such concepts; it was Tolkien's hope to give this work a Northern air, so that might point as to why Eru is a bit of a thunderer and smiter.

Eru's different because everyone can cop for it, whether good or not. I also don't think Protestantism has an overall 'good' God, as there's plenty of scope in all sects for shrugging your shoulders and saying "well, God works in mysterious ways" when something horrible happens. Another good reason for analysing what Eru does and understanding why he does it from within his own secondary world I think.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

[...]how can we say for sure that Eru is Tolkien's own view of the real world 'God'?

Sorry. I may have expressed myself poorly. That was by no means my intent. I meant more that how did Tolkien see his own creation, Eru? What did he wish to say with it?

In fact, as he was the one who created Morgoth and it was Morgoth who then created the discordancies in the music that brought evil into the world, and Eru allowed it to hapen, he was not always 'nice' from the beginning.

But was Tolkien's Eru an omnipotent all-knowing God like that of christianity who knew it already what his creation would be up to and all that would follow it or was he more a Northern God who did what he deemed best and tried to handle the outcome as best he could? I mean surely one can't blame a God for creating something great that later turns evil if his intentions were good and he knew not all that would come from his creation?

I also don't think Protestantism has an overall 'good' God, as there's plenty of scope in all sects for shrugging your shoulders and saying "well, God works in mysterious ways" when something horrible happens.

That's why I said that the protestantic interpretation partly tries to leave that side out...

PS. Funny. It's only now that I find personating Eru as a he a bit uncomfortable... looking like Judaeo-Christian-Islamist Guy here in this discussion. Blessed be the Finninsh language where the pronoun s/he will not imply a gender allowing a God to be more literally abstract.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Sorry. I may have expressed myself poorly. That was by no means my intent. I meant more that how did Tolkien see his own creation, Eru? What did he wish to say with it?

But was Tolkien's Eru an omnipotent all-knowing God like that of christianity who knew it already what his creation would be up to and all that would follow it or was he more a Northern God who did what he deemed best and tried to handle the outcome as best he could? I mean surely one can't blame a God for creating something great that later turns evil if his intentions were good and he knew not all that would come from his creation?

I think that's what he's trying to say - that this god (and maybe his God too, but who really knows) works in ways that to humble and mere people can seem cruel. There's plenty of free will, even for the Valar, as Eru seems to sit back mosty and allow the inhabitants of his world to work things out for themselves. Eru only seems to interfere where his creations interfere with some of the basic orderings of life - e.g. Men trying to get to Valinor, whereas Eru has set out another path for Men. It's at once a frightening and thrilling prospect that people and leser gods have so much scope in this world. Maybe it's telling us something about responsibility and taking it for ourselves seeing as Eru sticks his hand in so rarely? That would tie in with character development in LotR and how they all learn things about themselves.

Maybe Eru knew what might happen - he might have had an inkling from Morgoth's discordant tunes at least, but wanted to see how things would play out?

That's why I said that the protestantic interpretation partly tries to leave that side out...

PS. Funny. It's only now that I find personating Eru as a he a bit uncomfortable... looking like Judaeo-Christian-Islamist Guy here in this discussion. Blessed be the Finninsh language where the pronoun s/he will not imply a gender allowing a God to be more literally abstract.

'Tis a flamin' minefield, trying to pin down what this and that sect believes, which is why I;d rather go for what we can grasp hold of, i.e. looking at it from the text! And I like the sound of Finnish pronouns...maybe they are important in Tolkien's work as the language inspired him so much?

[Břicho]

It does seem like an atrocious act.

In fact, Eru having that kind of power all the time and letting Sauran kill and enslave thousands might be construed as an atrocious act...

But, anyway...

If Numenor had become the premiere Empire on Earth; unstoppable by ANYBODY--not Elves, not Sauron himself--maybe not even the Valar?--and had truly turned into an evil empire; if the majority of them carried off slaves to be sacrificed, raped "lesser races wives", tortured men for fun, stole things, burned fields and inflicted misery up and down the coasts of Middle-Earth, littered rampantly, etc...then maybe Eru was just being merciful to the Rest of the people of Middle Earth. Perhaps less people died in the Flood than would have died had the Numenorean Empire continued, um, empiring...? Just a thought?

[Elmo]

He could have ended the empire without slaughtering the innocents. The children were not born evil. If as written above he had made the Numenoreans normal humans again and they lost their empire they would no longer be able to commit their huge crimes and their would be no need for infaticide.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

PS. Funny. It's only now that I find personating Eru as a he a bit uncomfortable... looking like Judaeo-Christian-Islamist Guy here in this discussion. Blessed be the Finninsh language where the pronoun s/he will not imply a gender allowing a God to be more literally abstract.

I too find that always a bit difficult, since the -tar ending is feminine in Finnish... (In fact, when I was younger and first acquinted with the Silmarillion, I thought Ilúvatar to be female.) But it helps if you keep in mind that the name Ilúvatar comes from two elements ilúvë "all" and atar "father"...

[Elmo]

I personally think if I was on Middle Earth I would be right with the 'Black' Numenoreans right up to the point they started the human sacrifice. I think there is much Illuvatar could have done to try and heal the damage Melkor had done on man's view of the 'gift' of death.