LotR3-RotK-Seq21

[alatar]

I liked the energy that Bill Pullman's character brought to that moment. Surely there are more emotional cinematic speechs, but this one happened to be fresh in the mind. Note that I didn't mention Braveheart, as I thought that one overused. Any better pre-'we're all about to die' examples?

Are you sure, cousin, that you're just not sensitive to 4 July 1776?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Alatar / Bill Pullman in the Independence Day

We will not go quietly into the night!

Originally Posted by Dylan Thomas

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Sorry. I just couldn't help this...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Sorry. I just couldn't help this...

Thanks Nogrod for quoting another great movie.

Aragorn's speech is fine; it's just that I hear echoes of Braveheart and was hoping for something more Tolkien and Wow! Plus, Viggo has a nasally delivery.

Quibble.

[Sir Kohran]

I haven't been here for a while, and this'll have to be short, but hopefully meaningful.

Originally Posted by alatar

Aragorn's speech is fine; it's just that I hear echoes of Braveheart and was hoping for something more Tolkien

Just to play devil's advocate (this is the right scene, after all ), I see a lot of thematic similarities between Aragorn's speech and Gandalf's speech in the book:

Originally Posted by Aragorn in the movie, before the fighting at the Black Gate

A day may come when the courage of men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields, when the age of men comes crashing down, but it is not this day. This day, we fight! By all that you hold dear, on this good Earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!

Originally Posted by Gandalf in the book, during the planning of the attack on the Black Gate

Other evils there are that may come; for Sauron is himself but a servant or emissary. Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule.

Both times, they're giving messages of both hope and realism, saying that although there'll always be trouble in the world, we shouldn't think about what to do for the trouble in the future, but to think about what we can do to help now, and by doing so, we can make sure that those who come in the future will have a fair chance of doing the same. Whilst we can never hope to win completely, we can still give our best effort to win for the present; to show defiance against defeat and failure. Basically, to use a beautiful line from both book and movie...



All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.

[Essex]

LOL

No, really I'm glad you got your independance. It was about time someone else ran the world. We had our go, and decided to pass the baton.

But really, Independance Day is so corny, - especially the bill pullman speech mentioned above - I watched the movie in America whilst on holiday there and when everyone else was cheering, me and the missus were rolling up with laughter!

But why oh why do these arrogant movie directors think that America has to save the World every time? Not a slight agianst your country, just your film directors. Yes, I know it's American money blah blah, but really let's have a film where the World acts against alien enemies, not just the USA getting us out of the hole.

On another point regarding this, I think the world's problems with each other (i.e. Country v Country wars etc, religious conflicts) will only be finally solved when an Alien intelligence does try to take us over. Then we will ALL have a common cause to fight for and will concentrate on trying to kill them instead!

Anyway, enough of my rant, but I LOVE the MoS scene. I think the character and the way he acts are masterful. The voice, the teeth, the way he moves his head - his arrogance, his short sightedness, his lies - they all work so well.

And it wasn't a Parley by the way. Aragorn was quickly stopping the rot, not wanting the MoS to instill any more doubt in their minds..... (steps back after re-lighting the blue touchpaper)

And those poor two hobbits, begining the climb of Mount Orodruin. The tears are ready to well up soon........

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sir Kohran

I haven't been here for a while, and this'll have to be short, but hopefully meaningful.

Any input is appreciated.

Just to play devil's advocate

Cool! I work in the Devil's R&D division; didn't know we were in the same firm.

Both times, they're giving messages of both hope and realism, saying that although there'll always be trouble in the world, we shouldn't think about what to do for the trouble in the future, but to think about what we can do to help now, and by doing so, we can make sure that those who come in the future will have a fair chance of doing the same. Whilst we can never hope to win completely, we can still give our best effort to win for the present; to show defiance against defeat and failure. Basically, to use a beautiful line from both book and movie...

I don't see the similarities that you do, but that's just me. Is there anything in "The Last Debate" that may have inspired Aragorn's movie speech?

Originally Posted by Essex

No, really I'm glad you got your independance. It was about time someone else ran the world. We had our go, and decided to pass the baton.

Thanks. That would explain how we 'won' in 1776 though General Washington's army lost many a battle..you were just making it look good until you could get safely across the Atlantic. "Maybe they won't realize that we left them holding the bag until it's too late..."

But really, Independance Day is so corny, - especially the bill pullman speech mentioned above - I watched the movie in America whilst on holiday there and when everyone else was cheering, me and the missus were rolling up with laughter!

Okay, to each his own. Did Aragorn's speech make you feel as you (I assume) felt when the Rohirrim showed up on the Pelennor? I wasn't as fired up. Note that watching "Independence Day" at 3 AM tends to cloud my rationality.

But why oh why do these arrogant movie directors think that America has to save the World every time? Not a slight agianst your country, just your film directors. Yes, I know it's American money blah blah, but really let's have a film where the World acts against alien enemies, not just the USA getting us out of the hole.

Hmm...these movies, created to sell toys and reap profit, are primarily targeted to an American audience. Though some films do better in foreign distribution than in the domestic market, it's not typical. So, for the Americans, the good guys and heroes, for the most part, would be us. Think that James Bond is an exception. And, not to insult anyone's origin, but I think that many here aren't really sure that there's a real world beyond our shores.

On another point regarding this, I think the world's problems with each other (i.e. Country v Country wars etc, religious conflicts) will only be finally solved when an Alien intelligence does try to take us over. Then we will ALL have a common cause to fight for and will concentrate on trying to kill them instead!

Much agreed. Think that humanity still has 'tribal genes' and it's going to take some time before we leave them behind. Also, many peoples cannot think 'long term' as I'm not sure that we're wired for it. Anyway, another favorite in this theme is V where aliens set up a Nazi-like totalitarian state in the USoA (and around the world). Of course it's 'us' that kicks the aliens back into space, naturally...

Anyway, enough of my rant, but I LOVE the MoS scene. I think the character and the way he acts are masterful. The voice, the teeth, the way he moves his head - his arrogance, his short sightedness, his lies - they all work so well.

We could have spent more time with him; the moment could have played out longer.

And it wasn't a Parley by the way. Aragorn was quickly stopping the rot, not wanting the MoS to instill any more doubt in their minds..... (steps back after re-lighting the blue touchpaper)

Here we go! So what you're saying is that the lies of the MoS were effective, and Aragorn the Barbarian couldn't counter them with steel words. Nor, I guess, could Gandalf, armed with Narya. Wasn't it you that said that during the siege of Minas Tirith that the soldiers near Gandalf weren't as affected by the Nazgul as were those not so close? Did Gandalf lose everything when he lost his staff to the Witch-King? Can he no longer inspire hope? Aragorn, in Seq22 seems to have lost his hope as well, and so methinks that the returned King was just adding to, dare I say, his head count.

Why not a battle between the MoS and Aragorn? Anyway...

[Sir Kohran]

Originally Posted by alatar

I don't see the similarities that you do, but that's just me. Is there anything in "The Last Debate" that may have inspired Aragorn's movie speech?

I went over the top with my passionate little speech, but I was doing science coursework at the time and I needed to clear my head somewhere. But I still stand by my original point - I think it could have worked fine in the book.

Anyhow, I think that Aragorn's speech was inspired by lots of things throughout the story.

Originally Posted by alatar

Thanks. That would explain how we 'won' in 1776 though General Washington's army lost many a battle..you were just making it look good until you could get safely across the Atlantic. "Maybe they won't realize that we left them holding the bag until it's too late..."

It's a little-known fact that the United States was actually planned and created by the government as a backup plan - if Britain was ever in serious danger of being invaded, there would be a strong reserve force. We actually allowed the Americans to win through warfare, as that would make them into a strong and passionate country that would quickly turn the tide in any war Britain was finding hard.

Originally Posted by Essex

But really, Independance Day is so corny, - especially the bill pullman speech mentioned above - I watched the movie in America whilst on holiday there and when everyone else was cheering, me and the missus were rolling up with laughter!

LOL - I know exactly what you mean. I was on holiday in America too, and The Patriot (another anglophobic film by Mel Gibson) was playing and the people at this party were all squealing with delight. I just rolled my eyes and laughed.

Originally Posted by alatar

Okay, to each his own. Did Aragorn's speech make you feel as you (I assume) felt when the Rohirrim showed up on the Pelennor? I wasn't as fired up.

Perhaps, in different ways...Aragorn's is a message of hope whilst Theoden's is a message of destruction.

Originally Posted by alatar

Note that watching "Independence Day" at 3 AM tends to cloud my rationality.

Frankly, I think watching Independence Day at any time would cloud one's rationality...of course, aliens from another galaxy would just happen to use computer systems and a common virus could be quickly uploaded and used without any problems whatsoever...

Originally Posted by alatar

Hmm...these movies, created to sell toys and reap profit, are primarily targeted to an American audience. Though some films do better in foreign distribution than in the domestic market, it's not typical. So, for the Americans, the good guys and heroes, for the most part, would be us. Think that James Bond is an exception.

I can't understand why studios think films all about America will always sell better - look at the three bestselling movies of all time: Titanic, The Lord Of The Rings: The Return Of The King and Pirates Of The Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest. The first was set on a British ship, the heroine was British and some of the other actors were also British. The second was based on a book written by an Englishman, again much of the cast was British, and generally most of the 'style' - writing and production - was European in nature. The third yet again had quite a few British actors and pretty much all the characters themselves seemed 'British' (listen to the accents and the phrases they use - 'bloody', 'bugger', 'innit', etc.). So in short, I don't think the rest of the world needs to be obsolete for a movie to succeed.

Originally Posted by alatar

And, not to insult anyone's origin, but I think that many here aren't really sure that there's a real world beyond our shores.

I knew a woman from Italy who went on holiday to America and was seriously asked if she had driven there...

Originally Posted by alatar

Much agreed. Think that humanity still has 'tribal genes' and it's going to take some time before we leave them behind. Also, many peoples cannot think 'long term' as I'm not sure that we're wired for it. Anyway, another favorite in this theme is V where aliens set up a Nazi-like totalitarian state in the USoA (and around the world). Of course it's 'us' that kicks the aliens back into space, naturally...

Yes, a bit of global unity would do us all some good...

Originally Posted by alatar

We could have spent more time with him; the moment could have played out longer.

I agree, though timing and pace is always an issue - the audience doesn't want to spend time watching an ugly fellow banter back and forth with the heroes when there's a battle on the way...

Originally Posted by alatar

Here we go! So what you're saying is that the lies of the MoS were effective, and Aragorn the Barbarian couldn't counter them with steel words. Nor, I guess, could Gandalf, armed with Narya. Wasn't it you that said that during the siege of Minas Tirith that the soldiers near Gandalf weren't as affected by the Nazgul as were those not so close? Did Gandalf lose everything when he lost his staff to the Witch-King? Can he no longer inspire hope? Aragorn, in Seq22 seems to have lost his hope as well, and so methinks that the returned King was just adding to, dare I say, his head count.

I agree completely. This could have been the perfect moment to show Aragorn as a leader - he could stand tall and make the Mouth cower in fear. But oh no, we had to have some primitive bloodshed instead...

Originally Posted by alatar

Why not a battle between the MoS and Aragorn?

That's a good idea - as the Mouth mocks Aragorn, he quietly draws a dagger and then strikes but Aragorn reacts quicker and kills him. I think that would have worked far better.

[Essex]

We've had to wait a long while since we've had a touching point between elf and dwarf. It was hours ago, back as the fellowship we're leaving Lorien and Gimli's heart was broken. Now, finally, we have other touching (but non book) words between the two races. Get's me every time. It should be corny, in fact it's crying out to be corny, but it just works

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Undoubtedly, alatar, that is Essex's problem.

EDIT: Cross-posted with Nogrod.

I liked the Mouth of Sauron, even if there's not much more of him than a mouth. I do have difficulty picturing him as a man with that huge mouth and those long teeth, though.

Let the beheading debate commence (on this thread, anyway). I'm not sure it makes a great difference either way. It happens; you can blink and it's over if you like, and the guys come riding back to the Grand Armee.

I have to admit, I love Aragorn's speech; I'm a sap for heroic death charges. Viggo's delivery is great, although his American accent gets distracting a couple of times. I really wish they'd made him go Brit, but oh well. I will concede one thing to my English brethren: your accents sound a lot better than ours in stories of this sort.

Frodo and Sam crawling up the Mountain, with some flute music courtesy of Sir James Galway in the background, is awesome, epic, everything it should be.

And finally, the bit with Legolas and Gimli is tender emotion, perfectly capturing the spirit of the book. If only we could have seen them like this more often.