How could the Nazgul take Minas Morgul?

[Farael]

Originally Posted by CaptainofDespair

Gondor does not have the potential numbers for conscription that Mordor and Rhun do.

There, that's the whole issue. At least with me, I can't speak for Kuruharan. As far as I know (which admittedly is not everything) there was no possible conscription from Mordor. I believe I have read that Mordor was desolate until the coming of Sauron and desolate means very few, if any, inhabitants. The WK cannot conscript orcs from Mordor quite simply because there are none.

And following up on that "desolate" idea... while you chose to use Napoleon and the Crusades as an example, let me use a more modern one. World War 2, Hitler's attack on the USSR. They too had an extremely long supply line, and that was their downfall. When winter came around, it acted pretty much as a "scorched earth" policy. The Russians retreated and left behind no resources for the Nazi armies, who had to ship everything from Germany. In the end, this turned out to be impossible, even though they had trucks and trains and airplanes.

What does this have to do with all of this?

Oh, very simple... Mordor was constantly desolate, it wasn't just one season in the year, it was a barren wasteland all year round.

Not to mention that the same thing happened to Napoleon, winter came around and all of a sudden his (already stretched thin) supply line just couldn't cut it.

So you chose to look at the "possitive side" but you are ignoring the fact that these armies fell... within a year!! How could the WK hold such long supply lines to support his siege for twice as long?

And also...

Yet, no mention of some unconventional method of taking the city.

There is almost no explanation for whatever happens. We just get one brief line of text and a lot of guesswork. Yet what is a "conventional" method? In Middle Earth we have seen situations such as the "gods" coming down from "heavens" (ok, Valar coming from Valinor) to smack the hell out of Morgoth in his fortress... we have seen dragons and balrogs, we have seen little rings that keep whole realms safe and sound... We have seen weird tree-creatures tossing boulders as if they were pebbles... so howcome all of a sudden "conventional" can only be an army camped out outside a fortress' doors?

And in the light of those "unconventional" situations, what is so rare about a haunting that demoralises the troops and leads a few scared souls to open the doors to an enemy that, otherwise, would not have been enough to besiege the city without being driven off by near-by Minas Tirith/Osgiliath forces?

[CaptainofDespair]

Originally Posted by Farael

Oh, very simple... Mordor was constantly desolate, it wasn't just one season in the year, it was a barren wasteland all year round.

When we come to the War of the Ring, there are thousands and thousands of troops there. All of that is despite the desolation. And the mountains surrounding Mordor could very well harbor the orcs in their many caves. I doubt the Ephel Duath or the Ash (?) Mountains are places the Gondorians want to check.

Not to mention that the same thing happened to Napoleon, winter came around and all of a sudden his (already stretched thin) supply line just couldn't cut it.

Napoleon's supply lines were only broken after being stretched to Moscow. Had the French not gone towards Moscow, and had rather gone towards St. Petersburg, that breakage may very well not have occurred. The line to the Russian capital, while still thousands of mile long, could have held. Going to Moscow, however, leads one deep across long stetches of nothingness. Both Napoleon and Hitler made that mistake. That is an error the Witch-King would not have to contend with.

So you chose to look at the "possitive side" but you are ignoring the fact that these armies fell... within a year!! How could the WK hold such long supply lines to support his siege for twice as long?

The Wiki's supply line was nowhere near as long, and nor did he have to contend with armies nipping at his lines, as those only ran through Sauron-dominated regions. It's not hard to maintain a longer supply line if you only go through friendly territory. Combined that with the larger potential manpower over Gondor, and it becomes much, much more feasible for the Nazgul to lay siege for a longer time, and resist the relief efforts.

There is almost no explanation for whatever happens. We just get one brief line of text and a lot of guesswork.

I think Tolkien's mentioning of the fall of Ithil is quite enough explanation. The word "Siege" says it all. There is no guesswork in that, to me.

And in the light of those "unconventional" situations, what is so rare about a haunting that demoralises the troops and leads a few scared souls to open the doors to an enemy that, otherwise, would not have been enough to besiege the city without being driven off by near-by Minas Tirith/Osgiliath forces?

What is rare about it? That is the point. It is rare, to the point of being unheard of. And I do not recall a haunting being another meaning for the word 'siege'.

The simplest explanation is usually the correct one. While there are some pitfalls in explaining the fullness of either argument, the idea of a traditional "siege" fits more easily with what Tolkien wrote, and is thus the simplest explanation (in going with exactly what Tolkien wrote). A Haunting requires so much more flushing out and it does not really fit with the definition of the word that Tolkien chose. I doubt Tolkien would have come up with an entirely new meaning for "siege" without explaining it. And Tolkien obviously did not write anything to the effect of the situation of a Haunting occurring. Thus, it is far more likely that the simplest idea, that of the traditionally defined siege, is the most correct and feasible one.

[FeRaL sHaDoW]

Nazgul: (knocks on the door)

gatekeeper: who is it??

Nazgul: um courier...

gatekeeper: (opens gates)

Nazgul: (quickly jump in and storm the place)

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by FeRaL sHaDoW

Nazgul: (knocks on the door)

gatekeeper: who is it??

Nazgul: um courier...

gatekeeper: (opens gates)

Nazgul: (quickly jump in and storm the place)

Isn't it obvious that the Nazgul just sat outside the gate while the Witch-King used the tech tree he made in his Angmar Campaign to constantly bombard Minas Ithil with Avalanches, swarm with Summoned Orcs and Wights, and sick the Ice Wolf on the city? The reason it took two years was because there was a lot to conquer and the spells needed to recharge!

[Kuruharan]

All of that is despite the desolation.

Sauron had his tribute system up and running by then.

Combined that with the larger potential manpower over Gondor, and it becomes much, much more feasible for the Nazgul to lay siege for a longer time, and resist the relief efforts.

We still seem to not be communicating on this.

the idea of a traditional "siege" fits more easily with what Tolkien wrote

Not really, as we have been explaining for quite some time now.