Were the Istari Unable or Unwilling... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Rhod the Red · 01-30-2007, 10:44 PM

I think they had the power to choose the form themselves, but agreed not to change it once arriving in Middle-earth

mhagain · 01-31-2007, 02:01 PM

Radagast's "mastery" just might refer to knowledge of shapes and hues, or even some form of command over them, rather than any specific shape-changing ability.

I'm in total agreement with all of the above otherwise, but would like to raise one question.

After Gandalf's return, we start seeing visible displays of power. He breaks Sarumans staff, which I don't think even Saruman would have been able to beforehand (otherwise it would seem that he would have). He repels Ringwraiths. He takes a very active role in the command of Gondor's defence.

So.... was he made stronger, or was it just the case that the prohibition was relaxed (even a little) for him? And relaxed by whom? Almost certainly not Manwe, I don't think he would have had the authority to recall one of his own order from what was a very real "death". Did the Head Honcho Eru step in?

Thoughts & comments?

Sardy · 02-02-2007, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhagain

So.... was he made stronger, or was it just the case that the prohibition was relaxed (even a little) for him? And relaxed by whom? Almost certainly not Manwe, I don't think he would have had the authority to recall one of his own order from what was a very real "death". Did the Head Honcho Eru step in?

Very interesting point! Though it's never mentioned or referred to in the text, I can imagine Gandalf, after his "death" under Moria, returning to Valinor and confronting the council of the Maiar... making a powerful case for taking more action in Middle-earth, a stronger stand against Sauron... convincing them to not only give him a second chance and send him back, but allowing him greater versatility and less restriction in hius actions...

Bêthberry · 02-02-2007, 08:45 AM

Reading over this highly interesting thread gives me a wicked idea that is tantalising to entertain.

Why were the istari limited to old men? After all, the species Men includes women. I think Esty's REB III deserves to have an old female emissary. Maybe she even suffers from the wretched injunction not to use her full powers but always to defer to male authority. Yes, yes, fifty ways to keep a good woman down.

Now that's a possibility to ponder . . .

01-30-2007, 10:44 PM	#1
Rhod the Red Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 257	I think they had the power to choose the form themselves, but agreed not to change it once arriving in Middle-earth __________________ Head of the Fifth Order of the Istari Tenure: Fourth Age(Year 1) - Present Currently operating in Melbourne, Australia

02-02-2007, 08:45 AM	#4
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Reading over this highly interesting thread gives me a wicked idea that is tantalising to entertain. Why were the istari limited to old men? After all, the species Men includes women. I think Esty's REB III deserves to have an old female emissary. Maybe she even suffers from the wretched injunction not to use her full powers but always to defer to male authority. Yes, yes, fifty ways to keep a good woman down. Now that's a possibility to ponder . . . __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

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01-31-2007, 02:01 PM	#2
mhagain Wight Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: The best seat in the Golden Perch Posts: 219	Radagast's "mastery" just might refer to knowledge of shapes and hues, or even some form of command over them, rather than any specific shape-changing ability. I'm in total agreement with all of the above otherwise, but would like to raise one question. After Gandalf's return, we start seeing visible displays of power. He breaks Sarumans staff, which I don't think even Saruman would have been able to beforehand (otherwise it would seem that he would have). He repels Ringwraiths. He takes a very active role in the command of Gondor's defence. So.... was he made stronger, or was it just the case that the prohibition was relaxed (even a little) for him? And relaxed by whom? Almost certainly not Manwe, I don't think he would have had the authority to recall one of his own order from what was a very real "death". Did the Head Honcho Eru step in? Thoughts & comments?