Magic in Middle-earth

[Maerbenn]

Originally Posted by Raynor

While the bad guys can resort to the taint of Melkor to do their magic, there is good deal of another power that is always at play - and that comes from Eru (or more directly so).

So you do not agree with Saulotus’ speculation that even Gandalf used the Melkorian element (within his body) when practising magic? Is it only the ‘bad’ guys who use it? If so, do the ‘good’ guys use only power directly from Ilúvatar? Does no one use their ‘own’ power?

Originally Posted by Raynor

Letter #155, referred to previously, states that magic cannot be learned, so according to this all magic power is received at birth (or through a direct intervention of the powers - see Gandalf & the numenoreans).

So you do not agree with Saulotus’ opinion that Tolkien noticed that there were problems with this ‘solution’ and decided that magic has to work in some other way, and therefore did not include this portion in the letter actually sent (published as letter #154)?

[Raynor]

So you do not agree with Saulotus’ speculation that even Gandalf used the Melkorian element (within his body) when practising magic?

No, I don't. If it were so, the istari would have fallen the moment they started practicing magic outside Valinor; as such, it took centuries (for at least one of them) to fall to the dark side. To use Melkor's power is to fall to his influence.

Is it only the ‘bad’ guys who use it?

Willingly - yes. Some ignorant users might resort to it also.

If so, do the ‘good’ guys use only power directly from Ilúvatar?

Yes, by and large. If Gandalf imbued his staff with magic, he would be using "his" magic; however, the staff is imbued with Melkor's influence, so that comes into play too, to whatever small degree, indirectly and unwanted.

Does no one use their ‘own’ power?

It depends on what that represents; own (innate) power is very much Iluvatar's.

So you do not agree with Saulotus’ opinion that Tolkien noticed that there were problems with this ‘solution’ and decided that magic has to work in some other way, and therefore did not include this portion in the letter actually sent (published as letter #154)?

If I remember correctly, the problem with Mannish magic was related to the swords - however, those swords would have been made by numenoreans - some of them had the blood of Luthien, who could give them some magic power (as with Aragorn). What exactly did the normal Middle-Earth Men create or use, that would resemble magic? Nothing, as far as I know.

[Maerbenn]

Originally Posted by Raynor

To use Melkor's power is to fall to his influence.

Is that certain? How do you come to that conclusion?

Originally Posted by Raynor

If I remember correctly, the problem with Mannish magic was related to the swords - however, those swords would have been made by numenoreans - some of them had the blood of Luthien, who could give them some magic power (as with Aragorn).

So all Númenórean ‘magic’ was done by members of the Line of Elros? I suppose that idea could work, barely.

I suspect that Tolkien (in the note 'But the Númenóreans used "spells" in making swords?' referring to the statement that ‘it [magic] is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such’) by ‘spells’ meant something ‘learnt’. What Gandalf tells the Fellowship about spells in ‘A Journey in the Dark’ outside the West-door of Moria indicates that. Of course, it is most probably not enough to simply memorize spells to be able to use them, you have to have access to ‘power’ too.

Originally Posted by Raynor

What exactly did the normal Middle-Earth Men create or use, that would resemble magic? Nothing, as far as I know.

Well, we have Beorn and his skin-changing. And the Drúedain are also interesting; they have no Númenórean blood but according to ‘The Drúedain’ in Unfinished Tales they ‘had, or were credited with, strange or magical powers’.

[Raynor]

How do you come to that conclusion?

Melkor used his power and spread it through the matter of Arda in order to subdue and corrupt; his whole being and deeds were bent to that purpose. I doubt that this power can be directly used for good. This power continuously erodes even the mighty hroa of the elves, which were supposed to endure until the end of the world. My argument is that even if the melkorian element isn't strong enough to corrupt physically/directly, the moral choice of using it, per se, denotes corruption. I believe that using it is perpetuating it; we could argue along the lines of Gandalf purifying this, but that would mean returning Melkor's power to its original status, which is another situation altogether. The finnishing passage of the Silmarillion might be telling:

Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

Even words, information, which come from Melkor perpetuate his work of corruption; I would say, even more so, his lasting influence in the matter of Arda.

So all Númenórean ‘magic’ was done by members of the Line of Elros? I suppose that idea could work, barely.

We should also keep in mind that Eonwe gave to all the race of the numenoreans "wisdom and power and life"; I think it is safe to say that if the Numenoreans were able to do magic, this is a good source of it.

Well, we have Beorn and his skin-changing. And the Drúedain are also interesting; they have no Númenórean blood but according to ‘The Drúedain’ in Unfinished Tales they ‘had, or were credited with, strange or magical powers’.

Well, I would first notice that not of these examples refer to normal Men. Beorn might be an exception a la Tom Bombadil (I don't think his abilities were inherited by his descendants, I will have to check on that). The story of the statues from UT is really intriguing; do they necessarily point to magic? I wouldn't say so. I would also note that the druedain were eligible for becoming numenoreans too; perhaps, a gift of power was expressly given to them too - or maybe simply their moral choice elevated them (we know that at least the contrary is true - wrong moral choices diminishing one's status).