Where did all the goblins go?

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

But I have proof that orcs outlived Sauron: Tolkien in his Letters to his son Christopher repeatedly referred to "orcs on both sides of the war" and such like; apparently, they merged with the races of Men.

Oh you wit.

On a serious note, the only hard evidence we seem to have is that orcs were certainly capable of outliving Melkor (when Sauron had also - initially - surrendered).

In the absence of any statement either way, it's quite reasonable to assume that if they were capable of outliving Melkor, outliving Sauron would have been a relative doddle. If one were able to pin down JRRT today and put the question to him, I suspect he'd answer either "preposterous! of course they obviously did!" or "preposterous! of course they obviously didn't!"

Hmmmm - I wonder does "The New Shadow" have anything to say on the matter? Plus I seem to recall either a letter or essay where he said straight up that there would not have been a direct cut off from Sauron's reign to Aragorn's, and that there was still a lot of evil to be rooted out and destroyed.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I have a hard time beliveing that the orcs was completely killed off by Aragorn and his forces. . .It simply could not be done!

Middle-Earth is just to big, it is not like they where all gathered in one place and could be trapped. There was plenty of places to seek refuge and to hide and if a Balrog can hide for ages then surely small groups of orcs could have done the same.

I belive that the orcs was destroyed as a power, but not as a race. They would probably have been scattered into small groups seeking refuge in mountains and such and probably also migrating east.

I don't know how long they would survive, but I suppose they would be able to hide for a fair amount of time before dying by sword and because a lack of numbers. Kind of like the Petty-Dwarves.

[Thenamir]

I'm not so sure that orcs don't exist today. You see them pop up from time to time as leaders of places like Iran, Iraq, Venezuela, North Korea...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Thenamir

I'm not so sure that orcs don't exist today. You see them pop up from time to time as leaders of places like Iran, Iraq, Venezuela, North Korea...

Given Tolkien's interpretation of WWII in the Forward, I would think that any country which glorifies the machine would be powerfully under the sway of orcs.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, when you quote Tolkien, maybe it is not only about this, wars or machines, but if I take what he says, then the Orcs are far more common than it seems. Or "Orc-minds", at least. In the Appendix to LotR, in the part about the translation of LotR to English - which means also telling what the Orcs said there - Tolkien wrote:

But Orcs and Trolls spoke as they would, without love of words or things; and their language was actually more degraded and filthy than I have shown it I do not suppose that any will wish for a closer rendering, though models are easy to find. Much the same sort of talk can still be heard among the orc-minded; dreary and repetitive with hatred and contempt, too long removed from good to retain even verbal vigour, save in the ears of those to whom only the squalid sounds strong.

(I think I'll leave this without comments.)

[Kuruharan]

I am apparently alone in thinking that Tolkien described the end of the orcs quite well.

The Power that drove them on and filled them with hate and fury was wavering, its will was removed from them...

-and-

As when death smites the swollen brooding thing that inhabits their crawling hill and holds them all in sway, ants will wander witless and purposeless and then feebly die, so the creatures of Sauron, orc or troll or bease spell-enslaved, ran hither and thither mindless and some slew themselves, or cast themselves in pits, or fled wailing back to hide in holes and dark lightless places far from hope.
-The Field of Cormallen

When Sauron went *poof* they had to more master to guide their will and they became little more than beasts and that was pretty much the end of them.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

When Sauron went *poof* they had to more master to guide their will and they became little more than beasts and that was pretty much the end of them.

Yeah, exactly like what happened after the War of Wrath, and they survived then (Sauron was not present at that time! And they were bound by the will of Morgoth, not Sauron, and as you can see, there was no problem). Or after the war of the Last Alliance, and they survived again. The only thing that differed from the Fourth Age, I think, is that from what Tolkien said, there was no other power which would put the Orcs together. But they'd survive, diminish, go into the East and remain Goblins.

The Power that drove them on and filled them with hate and fury was wavering, its will was removed from them...

Context, please. Anyway, this only means that Sauron no longer controlled them. He did no longer "support" them by his will, he ceased to care about them. His will was no longer enslaving them, as well.

As when death smites the swollen brooding thing that inhabits their crawling hill and holds them all in sway, ants will wander witless and purposeless and then feebly die, so the creatures of Sauron, orc or troll or beast spell-enslaved, ran hither and thither mindless and some slew themselves, or cast themselves in pits, or fled wailing back to hide in holes and dark lightless places far from hope.

This speaks, I think, only on the moment (or the time period, not exact, but not reaching too far, not like for all the Fourth Age or something like that) when the battle was won. The suicidal or mindless acts, I think, do not refer mainly to the Orcs. The "beast spell-enslaved", definitely. The trolls, from what we know, surely. But Orcs? They were "normal" free-willed (now really) beings. The Power that ruled them was gone, yes. Their leader and shiny future (for the carieristic or fanatically devoted Uruk-hai) was gone. What a shock for them. I can imagine the more fanatic of them making suicides, or maybe more of them when facing the totally victorious enemy - but this would apply just for those in the army in front of the Black Gate. There were surely yet some (maybe little, but some) Orcs in Mordor who did not fight, and yet more in the Misty Mountains etc. And what happened to them? I think we might get a very good picture of it, if you take in mind Gorbag and Shagrat:

'I'd like to try somewhere where there's none of 'em. But the war's on now, and when that's over things may be easier.'
'It's going well, they say.'
'They would.' grunted Gorbag. 'We'll see. But anyway, if it does go well, there should be a lot more room. What d'you say? – if we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses.'
'Ah! ' said Shagrat. 'Like old times.'

They were not dependant on the will of Sauron, and they seem to be pretty happy even if he weren't around. Now when I come to it, I feel a little bit sorry for Gorbag and Shagrat, that they didn't outlive the fall of Sauron. I don't make myself any illusions: their "vacation" would've probably been represented by forming a self-sufficient raiding party, but still, who knows? (smiles at the idea of Orc-version "Shire" where old Gorbag and Shagrat sit under a tree, performing a contest in making smoke rings )

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, when you quote Tolkien, maybe it is not only about this, wars or machines, but if I take what he says, then the Orcs are far more common than it seems. Or "Orc-minds", at least.

...they're democrats and liberals who spend hours whining about everything and don't do anything every day?

[Rhod the Red]

They're all wiped out, the books and notes don't coreograph continuation of their existance.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Thenamir

I'm not so sure that orcs don't exist today. You see them pop up from time to time as leaders of places like Iran, Iraq, Venezuela, North Korea...

I am sorry, but I do not see the fun in comparing a democratical elected president with dictators.