Gandalf Captured!?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, no, I suppose Sauron saw he has one ring, three handkerchiefs, one map, seven shovels, a key, and four thousand thirty-five golden pieces in his pockets. He took the ring and then just threw him to the dungeon. He didn't care of the rest.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Even though the key would make an alliance with the dragon much easier, as in getting to see the dragon?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

The key was not labeled "this is a key to Erebor" and Sauron probably didn't bother to look at the map, since it showed the Lonely Mountain, which he knew. Maybe in the lust for the Ring he didn't even look at it. And if Sauron wanted to ally with Smaug, he'd probably send some of his classic Horsemen In The Night through the front gate. It does look suspicious if you sneak through the back entrance to a person (or Dragon) you want to make a fair deal with.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Sauron is meant to be the big, scary Dark Lord. Yet he captures a Dwarf who has one of his rings of power, and doesn't even bother to strip him of everything he has, slay him, or keep a watch on him. That's dodgy management; that's poor decision-making if you ask me.

Related point: could Sauron not sense that Gandalf was in Dol Guldur? I'm presuming Sauron was there at all times. If Sauron was hiding behind the curtains in Rivendell I'm sure Gandalf or Elrond would have felt something.

[MatthewM]

Another question that has me a little confused- wasn't Sauron unable to take physical form? So, how would they "find him" in Dol Guldur as the Necromancer?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

That's one of the main things Tolkien points out: the blindness of those who lust for power. This repeats in Professor's works again and again, I think it is quite obvious and one of the central parts of it. "Hurrah, I have the Seventh Dwarven Ring!" Finish. I think its very logical.

About Gandalf - I suppose Gandalf's presence was not so strong as Sauron's, and Dol Guldur wasn't Mordor. I think if Gandalf wanted to be hidden, he remained hidden there (if he avoided going too close to Sauron).

MatthewM - what do you mean by "find Sauron"? No one ventured to Dol Guldur except Gandalf. The Elves who lived there fled when the Shadow came, and there were dark beasts in the woods, they knew there is something evil in Dol Guldur, but no one went there to check it. After all, some "evil power" was for example also in Moria, and no one also went there except Thrain.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Fair enough, it fits Tolkien's point. It just makes me think that I'd be a better Dark Lord than Sauron.

Matt, Sauron did have a physical form. There's a bunch of stuff on the Downs about it. Just type 'Sauron', 'physical' or 'eyeball' into the search engine.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Sauron is meant to be the big, scary Dark Lord. Yet he captures a Dwarf who has one of his rings of power, and doesn't even bother to strip him of everything he has, slay him, or keep a watch on him. That's dodgy management; that's poor decision-making if you ask me.

Yes, Sauron is really just an idiot with power and too many names. A session with Silmarillion and UT reveals this, though not directly. I know Tolkien wanted good to win, but I also get the feeling that he was trying to say that evil was dumb.

[lathspell]

Ah, yes. What have I been thinking? I've read those books a million times and still can make quite stupid remarks. I guess it's a gift.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Yes, evil always destroys itself in greed and pride. Morgoth was finished because he didn't care about the people at the end of the Sirion (Earendil) and didn't count on the Valar coming to help. (pride) Sauron gets dead because he wants to kill Aragorn so badly he's blinded to the fact two hobbits are destroying his ring (greed).

[Sir Kohran]

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

Yes, Sauron is really just an idiot with power and too many names. A session with Silmarillion and UT reveals this, though not directly. I know Tolkien wanted good to win, but I also get the feeling that he was trying to say that evil was dumb.

This 'problem' is just down to The Hobbit being written way before Sauron was thought up. In TH, Thrain is just captured by 'the Necromancer' - an evil figure that's left in the dark. We aren't told what the Necromancer wants or even what he is - he's just a far off villain that Gandalf goes to confront. We don't know if he has any interest in Erebor or Smaug.

The problem comes when Sauron becomes the Necromancer - because we knopw his objectives, suddenly he seems stupid for letting such an opportunity slip through his fingers. Perhaps it just would have been better if Tolkien had Sauron in Mordor all along and the Necromancer as a separate villain.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Sir Kohran

The problem comes when Sauron becomes the Necromancer - because we knopw his objectives, suddenly he seems stupid for letting such an opportunity slip through his fingers. Perhaps it just would have been better if Tolkien had Sauron in Mordor all along and the Necromancer as a separate villain.

I don't agree. I think Sauron and the Necromancer have the same behavior and the same problems of overlooking things: for example, Sauron, again blinded by his lust for the Ring and not caring of all things in detail, did not even bother to ask Gollum whether "Shire... Baggins..." come from the same area as in which Gollum lived (Anduin Vales). He, in his lust for the Ring and anger and arrogance and ignorance (thinking that of course there is nothing else to be obtained from this little stupid creature - much the same he probably thought about Thrain), assumed that the Shire is located somewhere around Gollum's motherland. This results in the Black Riders' sweeping the ancient Stoor villages in Anduin until realizing that there is no Shire and no Baggins, and riding to knock on Saruman's door (Unfinished Tales, Third Age, pt. IV). Tolkien himself says that

"This was a very small and natural error – but possibly the most important mistake that Sauron made in the whole affair. But for it, the Black Riders would have reached the Shire weeks sooner."