Snow angels

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

So, IF elves and Ringwraiths have this enhanced visual acuity, could this possibility suggest that orcs--who are twisted or perverted elves--have maintained this ability? Would they in fact 'see' better/farther/faster than the armies of men they fight or simply see differently?

Or would this enhanced ability be lost in the process of perverting them? I find it difficult to envision an "orc angel", perhaps because I find it difficult to conceive of orcs at play.

Orcs do 'see differently,' as noted, and like the elves see better in the dark than humans. However, in regards to all things winter, I think that, when possible, orcs avoided snow and cold as we don't read that orcs crossed the frozen Brandywine back in 2911 (Third Age), nor read of the existence of 'snow orcs' even amongst the writings or the songs of the Lossoth. Anyway, so I'm guessing that the orcs have little to no 'snow-sense.' Even if they had the ability to see the denser patches of snow, or however the elves are doing it, I think that they would purposely sink to show their contempt for nature.

Also there's that common saying in the Shire used to note that the probability of the event is small to zero, which also speaks of orcs and snow, which is "...like a snowball fight's chance in Mordor."

[alatar]

Somewhat related to the thread: Each day I pass by a neighbor's yard. This lawn is immaculate; green beyond green, each blade of grass the same length as the other, no weeds or even a different species of blade, no blight, patches or stain. Truly an example of what Lothlorien lawn care must be like. The retiree and his wife work on the yard incessantly; it seems so precious to them that when we as a family walk by, I steer my family to the other side of the road so that my children will not mar this grassy carpet. I'd take a picture, but in good conscience (I've had one transplanted in for a 30-day trial), I'd have to explain why, and going into the whole 'snow angel and elves' thing with a stranger - yet neighbor - can't bode well for my standing in the community.

But anyway, it got me to thinking.

Somewhere in LotR, it is said that the slipper-footed Legolas's footfalls barely bruise, if touch at all, the blades of grass upon which he steps. This, of course, is contrasted with the iron-shod orcs that leave a scathing destructive trail. Now, in my backyard, where the grass is pounded down daily by the constant rolling of battery-driven vehicles - that which isn't dug up by the dog - I could walk across the grass and leave no trace. However, in the neighbor's yard, I assume that I could, with a slight press of my finger, leave a print that could be used to track me down.

The question is, then, could Legolas cross this grass undetected, and if so, could he make a 'grass angel' on the same?


**For those of you apt to test this hypothesis, please get the permission of the lawn's owner, as some folk take yard work a bit too seriously.

[Ataralasse]

It's threads like this one that make me glad I joined the Barrow-Downs. With such a limited focus, all kinds of ideas pop up that would never have occurred to me on another forum.

'The Custard Theory' still cracks me up. I just love that name.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

The question is, then, could Legolas cross this grass undetected, and if so, could he make a 'grass angel' on the same?


**For those of you apt to test this hypothesis, please get the permission of the lawn's owner, as some folk take yard work a bit too seriously.

Frankly, I doubt Legolas could have the same affect on lawn as on snow, due to the very different natures of the media through which he would be passing.

The wind created by his passing would produce several consequences. First, the frictional drag could in fact create higher temperatures than the grass could sustain, with the effect that Legolas would leave a trail of burnt grass tips marking his path. One possibility.

A second would be the effect simply of the sway in the grass caused by the aerodynamic force of his body through the air. This sway in the grass could then create an ever-so-slight beaten path in those areas over which he flew/trod--flod? Yes, perhaps elves do flod. Furthermore, turbulance is a natural effect of movement through air. This could in fact produce a random pattern of grass damage. Not crop circles I would think, but still erratic patches where the grass has been bent.

Either way, I think Legolas and other elves had best graze elsewhere than your neighbours' lawn.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Frankly, I doubt Legolas could have the same affect on lawn as on snow, due to the very different natures of the media through which he would be passing.

True, frozen water and grass are somewhat different. Grass contains a lot of water, but also, unlike H2O, it contains cellulose, which can be found in glasses of water when a natural laxative is prepared, but that has nothing to do with elves as far as we can tell.

The wind created by his passing would produce several consequences. First, the frictional drag could in fact create higher temperatures than the grass could sustain, with the effect that Legolas would leave a trail of burnt grass tips marking his path. One possibility.

Have considered this, and have noted that tornadoes drive, at the very least, particles across grass at very high speeds. I've seen pictures of the devastation left in the wake of a tornado, but have never noted any fires causes by the tornado that weren't generated by other means (downed power lines, petrol/natural gas leaks, etc). So I'm not sure that Legolas's passage would create enough heat to singe the grass tips. Even if it did, not sure how the same would play out on the snow, as one, at the very least, would see meltings where Legolas's slippers touched the frozen water, and so would negate the observation that the elf prince left little to no evidence of his passing.

Also, if enough elves singed enough grass, as surely the First Age elves would have done to a greater degree, we would have seen a response from Yavanna. On the other hand again, we never did discover the purpose of the ent-wives...

On even yet another hand, didn't the touch of Lúthien Tinúviel cause the spontaneous appearance of flowers? So maybe there is something to the toes of fire theory, as some plants, such as Jack pines, require fire to grow (well, to be seeded). Were the elves the 'honey bees' of the forest and grassy plains?

A second would be the effect simply of the sway in the grass caused by the aerodynamic force of his body through the air. This sway in the grass could then create an ever-so-slight beaten path in those areas over which he flew/trod--flod? Yes, perhaps elves do flod. Furthermore, turbulance is a natural effect of movement through air. This could in fact produce a random pattern of grass damage. Not crop circles I would think, but still erratic patches where the grass has been bent.

I'm sure that elven flodding is well-documented in story and song:

The leaves were long, the grass was singed,
The hemlock-umbels tall and flaring,
And in the glade the flames did binge,
On grass and and sticks and nightingale wings blazing.
Tinuviel was flodding there
To the beat of a drummer unseen,
And light of fire was in her hair,
And she danced like her backside was catching.

Either way, I think Legolas and other elves had best graze elsewhere than your neighbours' lawn.

In my neck of the woods, anyone looking like Paris Hilton prancing upon one's lawn is just asking for trouble.

[Bêthberry]

Let me tell you 'bout the birds and the bees
And the flowers and the trees
And the moon up above
And a thing called e ... e... e ... elves

Originally Posted by alatar

Were the elves the 'honey bees' of the forest and grassy plains?

I think you are on something here, alatar. While your survey of the effects of Seventh Age tornados fails to uncover any burnt blades, we do know that many processes in Middle earth have faded. We also know that with elves, their fëa gradually burns away their hröa (possibly a speedier form of composting?), so clearly they have an excess of energy, once could say. Why, I could even rewrite Einstein's famous equation for this if only I knew how to make the nifty raised square sign.

So great is this energy in elves that it is well to remember the fate of Fëanor, whose very name signifies this process. Remember that his hröa was completely consumed by his fëa upon his death. I don't have to mention how hot this must have made the Great Elf, as we all know what temperatures are needed to cremate a human body. Now, if this was true of Fëanor, it must be true at least in some measure for Legolas, who is undoubtedly the hottest elf of the Third Age.
He was, after all, instrumental in the regreening of Ithilien--making it the fairest land in all the west--after the fall of Sauron, so he must have had an extraordinary hand at pollinating. Perhaps the lack of burnt blades could simply be attributed to his artful use of withdrawing his fëa so that his hröa as well as the grass was not consumed.

[Thenamir]

Originally Posted by Bethberry

The wind created by his passing would produce several consequences. First, the frictional drag could in fact create higher temperatures than the grass could sustain, with the effect that Legolas would leave a trail of burnt grass tips marking his path.

I think that you’d have more than just singed grass tips. If you have air moving fast enough to cause that level of heat via friction, you have an influx of enough oxygen to feed a smoldering grass blade into full flame, reducing it to ash in scant milliseconds. That’s why folks trying to start a fire using the old boy-scout method will blow on the smoldering tinder to coax a flame from it. You wouldn’t have singed tips – at the least you’d have blackened footprints, and possible forest fires.

I am reminded of an account I read some years ago of a reporter taken for a ride in an SR-71 Blackbird reconnaissance jet who was warned not to touch the windshield once they hit Mach 2 (approximately 1500 mph or 2450 kph) – the temperature of the glass was high enough to blister the skin. Even so, I doubt that even that speed could have started a fire.

Further, if elves could generate that level of moving air, what’s to prevent them from actual flight? If they can “flod” over grass without harming or even marking it, it would surely be a small step to actual flight. I think there must be some other mechanism by which the elves negated the effects of their weight on snow or grass.

At the risk of bringing Treknobabble into a Tolkien website, I used to think that the elves lack of effect on snow or grass involved a partial negation of the effects of gravity – not so much as to become weightless, otherwise they’d just float away – but enough that their weight does not press down with enough force to mark their passing. However, this theory has as many problems as the wind/friction idea, because what’s to prevent elves from exerting this power just a bit more and achieving actual flight? Or at least the ability to hover over a battle out of reach of swords? (Wow, think of the advantages of a battalion of air-elves at an altitude of 500 feet or so, shooting arrows into a ground-bound division of orcs?)

[Ataralasse]

Hmm ... well, I always had this idea that Elf bodies were light while their spirits made up the difference. So they could dance on a rope stretched across a river, but put their spirit as well as their body strength behind blows or landing on someone. Their spirit (is that their fëa? ::ignorant:: ) is what makes them quick, have high endurance, &c., &c., &c.

Originally Posted by Thenamir

Wow, think of the advantages of a battalion of air-elves at an altitude of 500 feet or so, shooting arrows into a ground-bound division of orcs?

Fantastic!

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Thenamir

I am reminded of an account I read some years ago of a reporter taken for a ride in an SR-71 Blackbird reconnaissance jet who was warned not to touch the windshield once they hit Mach 2 (approximately 1500 mph or 2450 kph) – the temperature of the glass was high enough to blister the skin. Even so, I doubt that even that speed could have started a fire.

Think that we're talking about 'specific heat,' or 'heat capacity.' It's been said that, when you're baking/cooking, you're not as concerned about touching the thing that you're making as much as the thing that you're using to make it. In other words, the cake may be hot, but the pan will surely burn you. This metaphor comes up a lot when people discuss firewalking - walking barefoot across burning coals without harm to the skin. Many love to attribute this feat to magic and mysticism and the alteration of quantum auras (gotta use the word quantum to give it that new science smell), but it's simply physics. Hot burning wood 'holds' less heat than would an iron plate set across the same coals. You'll get away unscathed walking the coals, but not the plate.

Anyway, so even if the elves had hot feet, not sure if this heat would more than wilt the grass tips. But that's conjecture.

Further, if elves could generate that level of moving air, what’s to prevent them from actual flight? If they can “flod” over grass without harming or even marking it, it would surely be a small step to actual flight. I think there must be some other mechanism by which the elves negated the effects of their weight on snow or grass.

"That's one small flod for Nóm, one giant flod for elfkind..."

At the risk of bringing Treknobabble into a Tolkien website, I used to think that the elves lack of effect on snow or grass involved a partial negation of the effects of gravity – not so much as to become weightless, otherwise they’d just float away – but enough that their weight does not press down with enough force to mark their passing. However, this theory has as many problems as the wind/friction idea, because what’s to prevent elves from exerting this power just a bit more and achieving actual flight? Or at least the ability to hover over a battle out of reach of swords?

Problem with anti-gravity - physics aside (we ARE discussing elves ) - is how do these floating ones swing a sword, hoist a wine barrel or taunt a Dwarf? All, or at least two of the three, require the elf's feet to be firmly pushing against Arda in the equal and opposite direction as the action being performed (if I got that right). Just try to swordfight on wet ice...actually, don't, as that would fall under the 'that's silly and you most likely will get harmed or dead, and so don't do it' list of suggestions best disregarded.

(Wow, think of the advantages of a battalion of air-elves at an altitude of 500 feet or so, shooting arrows into a ground-bound division of orcs?)

These aren't Peter Jackson's elves, are they?