The Dior Dilemma

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Raynor

But this would presume that a half-elven would receive any traits of his human parent. So far, I don't think it is warranted. I would also hold that no single feature is strictly human or elven; the only exceptions would be the ears (not a certain issue) and the unspecific beauty of the firstborn (not a monopoly of them either).

If he can inherit from his Elven parent, why couldn't he inherit from his human one?

What if all of Dior's dominant genes, physically, came from Beren? Tolkien says that Elves and Men were capable of producing offspring in the normal way, which assumes two sets of genes and the subsequent physical products from the two parents.

I would agree that there may not have been any body parts exclusive to one race or the other, as I don't hold with the ears-different theory.

Furthermore, even if his body would maintain some Mannish features from the parent, it would definitely undergo a radical transformation, seeing that the bodies of elves have to endure life until the end of the world (if we don't count Melkor's marring).

Need it undergo any transformation at all? The Númenoreans were pretty longeval, and under the original schema they didn't die of old age, but of surrendering their lives. Granted, there was aging going on, but if one further takes the Athrabeth into account, one could make a case that the inherent Mannish form was as immortal as the Elven one.

In conclusion, I don't think he would have something that would set him aside from other elves visibly, while biologically he would be like them as much as any other elf.

Biologically, any human was like any elf-- thus they could copulate producing fertile offspring. The ONLY difference between the races that we are definitively given is lifespan.

[Raynor]

I would agree that there may not have been any body parts exclusive to one race or the other, as I don't hold with the ears-different theory.

Then I would say that nothing of their Mannish ancestry, if any, would set them apart.

Need it undergo any transformation at all? The Númenoreans were pretty longeval, and under the original schema they didn't die of old age, but of surrendering their lives. Granted, there was aging going on, but if one further takes the Athrabeth into account, one could make a case that the inherent Mannish form was as immortal as the Elven one.

However, in contrast to Andreth's words, Tolkien notes in the letters that if Men are "immortal" too, then they are pretty much elves, so there would be no point in having both of them. Also, Myths Transformed speculates that even given the perfect conditions of Aman, a Man would perish soon (as compared with those with true "immortality"). It may also be that this idea of Men being initially "immortal" was instilled as part of Melkor's plan to corrupt their view on life and death.

[Formendacil]

Fair points, I suppose...

But I would still quibble that Elrond et al were not merely "Half-Elves by title only", but, simply, Half-Elves. We could just as easily call him Half-Man, though that is not the convention. I'm willing to accept that the Half-Elven-who-chooses-Elvenkind is in all respects a full, regular, Elf, but that is biologically. In terms of culture and self-perception, the Mannish influence cannot but affect the mind. Obviously, it affected Elrond less than Elros, since he chose his Elven heritage-- but there is ample evidence shown in his fondness for his Arnorian cousins in the Third Age that Elrond remembered and honoured his kinship with Men, and consequently his descent from them.

[Raynor]

I'm willing to accept that the Half-Elven-who-chooses-Elvenkind is in all respects a full, regular, Elf, but that is biologically.

There are two main areas that are not taken into account by this idea, and which significantly separate Men from Elves. One is the high level of abilities specific to the elves; Elrond is the greatest loremaster of Middle Earth, perhaps the most skilled healer, a powerful magician, he can foresee into the future in some matters, and I believe he can recall from his childhood the world of the First Age. The other is the special communion elves had with their body

Originally Posted by Aelfwine's preamble, Later Quenta Silmarillion, HoME X

They are not easily deceived by their own kind; and their spirits being masters of their bodies, they are seldom swayed by the desires of the body only, but are by nature continent and steadfast.

I, for one, have little reason to believe that Elrond didn't excel in this area too. We could argue about the value of Elrond having been a Man (if he ever actually was). However, none of this would diminish Elrond's "elvishness" - at most complete it and enrich it. He remains a foremost exponent of his race.

[Legolas]

Dior was mortal.

All Peredhil would've been mortal until Earendil and Elwing. Manwe made a proclamation:

Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them.

Dior was never granted other doom, therefore he was mortal.

Originally Posted by The Might

The quote from Letter #153 shows that Dior was given this choice. The question remaining is which choice did he make.

The quote describes the choice given to Earendil, Elwing, and their sons. Not Dior. The choice was only granted to them after Earendil and Elwing had acted so admirably in the final days of the First Age.

But I would still quibble that Elrond et al were not merely "Half-Elves by title only", but, simply, Half-Elves.

Well, "technically", he was a full elf after he and Elros made their choices. After that, he was a half-elven by title only.

Formendacil is correct. What is "a full elf"? Elrond can never be anything other than what he is. Tolkien never refers to him (or any of the immortal half-elven) as an elf - simply stating that "Elrond chose to be among the Elves" (Letter 153). His blood or genetic makeup doesn't change; he was just "granted the same grace" (Appendix A, ROTK). There is no reason to now call him an elf just because he shares their fate.

Likewise, Tuor does not 'become an elf.' He is still a Man; he is simply granted the same grace.

[Raynor]

His blood or genetic makeup doesn't change; he was just "granted the same grace" (Appendix A, ROTK).

Your quote is misleading. It reffers to the ability to pass over to the west, not to his immortality.

Elrond chose to be of Elven-kind, and became a master of wisdom. To him therefore was granted the same grace as to those of the High Elves that still lingered in Middle-earth: that when weary at last of the mortal lands they could take ship from the Grey Havens and pass into the Uttermost West; and this grace continued after the change of the world.

What is "a full elf"?
...
There is no reason to now call him an elf just because he shares their fate.

It wasn't just sharing their fate, but also their other abilities, which I mentioned previously. Anyway, do I understand correctly that you consider Men, Half-Elven and Elves to have the same "blood or genetic makeup"? If so, what would make a Half-Elven less of an elf, than a "naturally" born Elf?

[Rhod the Red]

"There is no reason to now call him an elf just because he shares their fate"

He lived the life of one, therefore accepted in his community as a full Elf.

[Legolas]

Well said, Formendacil.

Originally Posted by Raynor

Your quote is misleading. It reffers to the ability to pass over to the west, not to his immortality.
It wasn't just sharing their fate, but also their other abilities, which I mentioned previously.

I think his fate is implied. The fact that he shares their abilities remains unchanged by his fate. He would share their abilities in any event. Imagine that he never receives the choice. He eventually dies as he is mortal, given Manwe's judgement. His nature is due to his ancestry and environment, not his fate.

He lived the life of one, therefore accepted in his community as a full Elf.

He is not accepted as "a full Elf" and has no need to be. He is accepted as himself, Elrond Peredhil. Half-elven, and of the lineage of Finwë, Thingol, and Melian. Socially accepted among the Elven, and they are all aware of his family more than anyone. They know the story backwards and forwards. Why does he need to become anything other than Half-elven?

Likewise, Gimli "lived the life of one" on Tol Eressëa, but that does not change his fundamental kind. He is a dwarf, and accepted as a dwarf.

It wasn't just sharing their fate, but also their other abilities, which I mentioned previously. Anyway, do I understand correctly that you consider Men, Half-Elven and Elves to have the same "blood or genetic makeup"? If so, what would make a Half-Elven less of an elf, than a "naturally" born Elf?

They must be of the same genetic structure, but not the same genetic makeup. By genetic makeup, I mean the specific genes passed to him by his parents. Just as native Africans and native Europeans have the same genetic structure - they are H. sapiens with 46 chromosomes - but do not have identical genotypes.* The offspring of a native European and a native African will be less European than a "full" European, and less African than a "full" African - yet any one offspring has the chance at being much more phenotypically† one or the other.

Which actually brings me to a better description. Elrond's phenotypes are all, or at least more often, Elven where there is a difference between Men and Elves. However, that does not change his genotype. He is still Half-elven.

It may be even logical to presume that this is why he chose to be immortal - he was more Elven in manner, felt more connected to that aspect of his ancestry, etc.

* genotype - an organism's genome, or genetic makeup
† phenotype - the actual characteristics expressed as a result of genotype and environment