Gothmogs and dragons and noobs, oh my

[Rumil]

Just a quick note,

Gothmog was the name of the head Balrog of Morgoth during the First Age. It seems that the Third Age character was named after this Balrog, much as Sauron's battering ram, Grond, was named after Morgoth's mace.

Sadly the 3rd Age Gothmog remains a mystery!

[Boromir88]

With Gothmog, nothing is known for sure, anyone's guess is as good as the next. Afterall he only gets this one sentence in The Lord of the Rings:

He now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand, Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues.~The Battle of Pelennor Fields

I've always felt this ruled out the 'orc' possibility. Because if you notice Gothmog is commanding a group entirely composed of Men. Sauron (nor Saruman for that matter) seem like people who would put Orcs in high positions when it comes to their hierarchy. Saruman didn't trust Orcs as gatekeepers...so he used Men. And the highest/most trusted servants of Sauron's were the Nazgul (once Men) and the Mouth of Sauron. Therefor, Gothmog most likely seems he would be a man (or once a man - a Nazgul).

The reason I don't think Gothmog was a Nazgul, I think TM has put it the best way. The Nazgul's lack of identity is a symbolic matter. Tolkien plays with this idea of the importance of 'names.' If you have a name, you have an identity, you have this sense of self and free will. If you have no name (or forget your name entirely) than there is no identity, you are completely controlled/have no free will. Prime example being the Nazgul, being slaves to Sauron...they lost names and their identity. Let's take Gollum...his name was Smeagol, however people soon labelled him Gollum because of the noises he made. He loses touch with Smeagol and becomes Gollum (as he becomes controlled by the Ring).

As far as Tolkien calling one of his Nazgul 'Khamul.' There are a thing to consider. 'Khamul' was only mentioned in Unfinished Tales, no where else (and probably the important one - The Lord of the Rings) does the name 'Khamul' for one of the Nazgul show up.

One quick comment here for Ninja:

Well, if he was a Nazgul, then there would have had to be an ancient king named Gothmog

The whole thing of the Nazgul being 'Kings of Men' was entirely made by the movies. In The Silmarillion we are told that 3 were 'Numenorean Lords' and that after they received their rings they became 'great kings, warriors, and sorcerers.' As far as the 9 Nazgul being 9 Kings of Men, that was something from the movies.

[The Might]

Yes, his name is only mentioned in the Unfinished Tales, and as seen in other cases some of the information mentioned in the book is not to be taken as true.
I personally could see another similarity between the 1st Age and 3rd Age Gothmog.
The first one of the most important servants of Melkor, the second of Sauron.
I would speculate that it was Sauron that gave him this name as a symbol of his power and importance, mirroring the First Age character.

[Legolas]

I've always thought that he was a man (similar to the Mouth of Sauron) or an orc.

The former is my real guess. As mentioned previously, it seems likely that an orc is not of such status or in charge of a human army.

The fact that Gothmog is not referred to as a Nazgul is enough for me to decide that he is not.

[Elmo]

Back to dragons, if they were made from some type of animal, how did Melkor manage to make them sentient?

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by hewhoarisesinmight

Back to dragons, if they were made from some type of animal, how did Melkor manage to make them sentient?

I don't think making them sentient is the greatest problem. He could have done it like he did with the werewolves, though that procedure is strange in itself. The more interesting question to me is: how was he able to make them so powerful? You could argue that they were more powerful than Balrogs (Maiar!). That's a lot of power to be put in a lizard, though I have to concede that it would need as much power if he devised them from scratch.

Originally Posted by The Might

I could personally imagine this corruption as similar to what Sauron did with the winged beasts during the Third Age:

But Sauron's beasts are dwarved by Melkor's dragons. Even if we take into account that Melkor was more powerful and probably more skilled at corrupting beasts, and even if we assume that pre-dragons were already stronger than pre-winged-beasts, I don't think this fits.

I never thought of the Were-worms. A nice idea, I admit, but the fact that they're mentioned nowhere but in the Hobbit makes it improbable. And the prefix 'were' suggests that they were strongly influenced by Melkor already. But maybe they had a common ancestor.


PS: I also enqueue in the 'Gothmog was a man'-camp, like in the old poll.

[Boromir88]

Hate to bust in here, but just one little thing:

The more interesting question to me is: how was he able to make them so powerful? You could argue that they were more powerful than Balrogs (Maiar!).

Actually, that can't be made . In Tolkien's earliest conception of the Balrogs (BoLT), they were an entire race of their own, and he talks about 'armies' of Balrogs. And even in BoLT it's remarked that the Dragons were Melkor's deadliest servants, save the Balrogs. (If I remember correctly in BoLT Tolkien even played with the idea of Balrogs riding upon Dragons). Tolkien would later greatly change his thoughts about Balrogs, making them Maiar, more powerful, and setting the number of Balrogs that existed from 3 to 7. Dragons stayed relatively the same, so I don't think any case can be made for a dragon being more powerful than a Balrog.

Dragons seemed to be more effective and do more damage, probably because there were hundreds upon hundreds of them; where by Tolkien's latest thoughts only 7 Balrogs ever existed at the most (HoMe X: Morgoth's Ring).

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

I don't think making them sentient is the greatest problem.

I disagree; only Eru has that power.

Originally Posted by Orcs, Myths Transformed, HoME X

As the case of Aule and the Dwarves shows, only Eru could make creatures with independent wills, and with reasoning powers.

Originally Posted by Of Aule and Yavanna, Silmarillion

- Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own bring only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?

Originally Posted by Letter #212

The One rebuked Aule, saying that he had tried to usurp the Creator's power; but he could not give independent life to his makings. He had only one life, his own derived from the One, and could at most only distribute it. 'Behold' said the One: 'these creatures of thine have only thy will, and thy movement. Though you have devised a language for them, they can only report to thee thine own thought. This is a mockery of me.'

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Legolas

I've always thought that he was a man (similar to the Mouth of Sauron) or an orc.

The former is my real guess. As mentioned previously, it seems likely that an orc is not of such status or in charge of a human army.

The fact that Gothmog is not referred to as a Nazgul is enough for me to decide that he is not.

Lieutenant of Mordor, maybe, or Lieutenant of Gorgoroth. But not Lieutenant of Morgul! Morgul was Nazgul central: in my opinion, the title alone of this commander is explicit enough of his identity. Additionally, if the Nazgul were Sauron's greatest servants, what kind of man or orc might supersede another Nazgul when replacing the Witch-King as field commander? Unless someone knows that the rest of the Nazgul were taking it easy somewhere other than Pelennor, I can't see any support for the argument that Gothmog was someone other than Sauron's second most fearsome lieutenant, just under the Witch-King.

Legolas will say, "If Gothmog was a Nazgul, Tolkien would have said so!" I know, because I've had the discussion with him before. But I believe "Lieutenant of Morgul" is just another way of saying exactly that.