Gothmogs and dragons and noobs, oh my

[The Might]

Yes, his name is only mentioned in the Unfinished Tales, and as seen in other cases some of the information mentioned in the book is not to be taken as true.
I personally could see another similarity between the 1st Age and 3rd Age Gothmog.
The first one of the most important servants of Melkor, the second of Sauron.
I would speculate that it was Sauron that gave him this name as a symbol of his power and importance, mirroring the First Age character.

[Legolas]

I've always thought that he was a man (similar to the Mouth of Sauron) or an orc.

The former is my real guess. As mentioned previously, it seems likely that an orc is not of such status or in charge of a human army.

The fact that Gothmog is not referred to as a Nazgul is enough for me to decide that he is not.

[Elmo]

Back to dragons, if they were made from some type of animal, how did Melkor manage to make them sentient?

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by hewhoarisesinmight

Back to dragons, if they were made from some type of animal, how did Melkor manage to make them sentient?

I don't think making them sentient is the greatest problem. He could have done it like he did with the werewolves, though that procedure is strange in itself. The more interesting question to me is: how was he able to make them so powerful? You could argue that they were more powerful than Balrogs (Maiar!). That's a lot of power to be put in a lizard, though I have to concede that it would need as much power if he devised them from scratch.

Originally Posted by The Might

I could personally imagine this corruption as similar to what Sauron did with the winged beasts during the Third Age:

But Sauron's beasts are dwarved by Melkor's dragons. Even if we take into account that Melkor was more powerful and probably more skilled at corrupting beasts, and even if we assume that pre-dragons were already stronger than pre-winged-beasts, I don't think this fits.

I never thought of the Were-worms. A nice idea, I admit, but the fact that they're mentioned nowhere but in the Hobbit makes it improbable. And the prefix 'were' suggests that they were strongly influenced by Melkor already. But maybe they had a common ancestor.


PS: I also enqueue in the 'Gothmog was a man'-camp, like in the old poll.

[Boromir88]

Hate to bust in here, but just one little thing:

The more interesting question to me is: how was he able to make them so powerful? You could argue that they were more powerful than Balrogs (Maiar!).

Actually, that can't be made . In Tolkien's earliest conception of the Balrogs (BoLT), they were an entire race of their own, and he talks about 'armies' of Balrogs. And even in BoLT it's remarked that the Dragons were Melkor's deadliest servants, save the Balrogs. (If I remember correctly in BoLT Tolkien even played with the idea of Balrogs riding upon Dragons). Tolkien would later greatly change his thoughts about Balrogs, making them Maiar, more powerful, and setting the number of Balrogs that existed from 3 to 7. Dragons stayed relatively the same, so I don't think any case can be made for a dragon being more powerful than a Balrog.

Dragons seemed to be more effective and do more damage, probably because there were hundreds upon hundreds of them; where by Tolkien's latest thoughts only 7 Balrogs ever existed at the most (HoMe X: Morgoth's Ring).

[Mithalwen]

Maybe as with dragons there were winged and unwinged types of balrog......

[Macalaure]

As I said, one could argue.

I had the Bragollach in mind, where it is said that orcs and balrogs were in Glaurung's host, which I would interpret as 'under his command'.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

If I remember correctly in BoLT Tolkien even played with the idea of Balrogs riding upon Dragons).

That's an amazing image - how awesome would this have been, in every sense of the word?!

Heh, and it also hints that the Balrogs did not have wings, if they needed steeds to ride upon...but that's not the discussion, is it?

Anyway. The thing with dragons is that they are not merely 'dumb animals' but truly terrifying creatures possessed with genuine intelligence and magical powers such as Glaurung's hypnotic stare - reminiscent of the Basilisk. And Tolkien, who 'desired dragons with a profound desire' would not have created stupid, animal-like dragons, he could only create truly terrifying, sentient dragons. However Melkor could not have created sentient beings, which is the sticking point. But he could have corrupted existing beings and bred from and with existing animals, and in so doing, create dragons who served Melkor's purposes.

In early drafts about the fall of Gondolin Tolkien wrote of mechanical objects which were in the form or shape of dragons attacking the city, reminiscent of the machinery of war in WWI (the flammenwerthers), but later had actual dragons engaged in this warfare - much more satisfying.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

I don't think making them sentient is the greatest problem.

I disagree; only Eru has that power.

Originally Posted by Orcs, Myths Transformed, HoME X

As the case of Aule and the Dwarves shows, only Eru could make creatures with independent wills, and with reasoning powers.

Originally Posted by Of Aule and Yavanna, Silmarillion

- Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own bring only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?

Originally Posted by Letter #212

The One rebuked Aule, saying that he had tried to usurp the Creator's power; but he could not give independent life to his makings. He had only one life, his own derived from the One, and could at most only distribute it. 'Behold' said the One: 'these creatures of thine have only thy will, and thy movement. Though you have devised a language for them, they can only report to thee thine own thought. This is a mockery of me.'

[obloquy]

I just love it when people support their opinions with copious quotes from the books! Nice post, Raynor.

[Macalaure]

I disagree; only Eru has that power.

Of course Melkor could not have created a sentient being. What he could have done is, like he did with werewolves, 'put' a spirit into their bodies, and thus make them sentient. Where Melkor took those spirits from is something I'm asking myself as well.

I just noted the possibility. I don't think this is very likely.

I've been pondering to put a 'How did Melkor make dragons' thread up some time ago, but thought it would be a stupid question. Maybe it wasn't so stupid after all - if nobody of you knows, too.

[Raynor]

like he did with werewolves

Hm, where is that stated?

Concerning the creation of dragons, the closest Tolkien ever came to describing it (that I know) is in the Book of lost tales, relating to the fall of Gondolin:

Therefore [Maeglin] counselled Melko to devise out of his sorceries a succour for his warriors in their endeavour. From the greatness of his wealth of metals and his powers of fire he bid him make beasts like snakes and dragons of irresistible might that should overcreep the Encircling Hills and lap that plain and its fair city in flame and death.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Legolas

I've always thought that he was a man (similar to the Mouth of Sauron) or an orc.

The former is my real guess. As mentioned previously, it seems likely that an orc is not of such status or in charge of a human army.

The fact that Gothmog is not referred to as a Nazgul is enough for me to decide that he is not.

Lieutenant of Mordor, maybe, or Lieutenant of Gorgoroth. But not Lieutenant of Morgul! Morgul was Nazgul central: in my opinion, the title alone of this commander is explicit enough of his identity. Additionally, if the Nazgul were Sauron's greatest servants, what kind of man or orc might supersede another Nazgul when replacing the Witch-King as field commander? Unless someone knows that the rest of the Nazgul were taking it easy somewhere other than Pelennor, I can't see any support for the argument that Gothmog was someone other than Sauron's second most fearsome lieutenant, just under the Witch-King.

Legolas will say, "If Gothmog was a Nazgul, Tolkien would have said so!" I know, because I've had the discussion with him before. But I believe "Lieutenant of Morgul" is just another way of saying exactly that.