The Dior Dilemma

[Lalaith]

All Peredhil would've been mortal until Earendil and Elwing.

But hadn't the Peredhil all lived immortal lives even before this? Dior's dates are uncertain, according to the encyclopaedia of Arda, and he clearly was slain when young.
But Earendil and Elwing were both born around 500 FA. The voyage was around 573, was it not? They don't strike me as a couple of old dears - Elwing flying around in bird's shape and so on...so they clearly did not age like mortal men and women did.

And does no-one have the answer to my query about the twins and the Nandor?

[Legolas]

This gives no reason to expect that they were living immortal lives. I would expect that Dior, his children, and Earendil would've lived very long lives. Earendil and Elwing's mortal son Elros lived 500 years. I can't find any figures to give an idea of a Man's lifespan in the First Age - each date of death seems to be because the person was killed.

Still, later Elendil and Isildur lived in excess of 200 years and only died at their respective ages because they were slain. They do not appear to be withering of old age - Elendil is slain in combat with Sauron as he is leading an army of men while Isildur is murdered in the Disaster of Gladden Fields.

Aragorn lived 210 years, though that is very long for someone at that time. Even Theoden, with no immortal ancestors whatsoever, is still leading an army and fighting at age 71 when he is slain at Pelennor Fields. Éomer goes on to live to 93.

As for the twins and Nandor question, I'll look into it.

[Raynor]

Tuor did not become an elf. He was "numbered among the elder race" - dwelt with them, was part of their population in Aman, shared their fate,

Then what does Tuor become? Does he still remain a mortal?

In letter #131, Tolkien states that the nature of Men "could not endure" immortality, and it is apparent that this quote is in refference to letter #156, where it is said:

The view is taken (as clearly reappears later in the case of the Hobbits that have the Ring for a while) that each 'Kind' has a natural span, integral to its biological and spiritual nature. This cannot really be increased qualitatively or quantitatively; so that prolongation in time is like stretching a wire out ever tauter, or 'spreading butter ever thinner' – it becomes an intolerable torment.

In my interpretation of these, no Man can be immortal.

IIRC, Tolkien comments in the letters that the view of Man that they were or can, or should be immortals is a lie induced by Melkor. Concerning this subject, Tolkien notes in his comments on the Atrabeth that (emphasis added):

He remains, nonetheless, in the opinion that the condition of Men before the disaster (or as we might say, of unfallen Man) cannot have been the same as that of the Elves. That is, their 'immortality' cannot have been the longevity within Arda of the Elves; otherwise they would have been simply Elves, and their separate introduction later into the Drama by Eru would have no function.

If I can rephrase that: if a Man is immortal, then he is simply an Elf.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Then what does Tuor become? Does he still remain a mortal?

What you are doing, Raynor, is defining a man as mortal and an elf as an immortal, and saying there is NO other difference.

What I am arguing--and what I think Legolas is arguing--that there are further differences, just as there are between different ethnic groups of humans.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

What you are doing, Raynor, is defining a man as mortal and an elf as an immortal, and saying there is NO other difference.

My I ask how you arrived at that conclusion from my statement? My argument was that if a Man (or to be more exact, one of the Eruhnini), is immortal, then he is an Elf. Interpreting this implication as meaning an exclusive disjunction between this difference and other possible differences between Men and Elves is unwrarranted - esspecially if you consider that previously I presented abilities (or their degrees) which are specific to the Elves.

In the case of Elros' descendents, until the shadow fell on Númenor, four hundred years was the standard lifespan, whereas the Normal Númenorean only lived 250-300 years.

It depends on what you mean by the shadow. From 2406, the kings live for less than 350 years, and from as early as 2618, the ruler's life decreases bellow 300 years and continues to diminish.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Raynor

It depends on what you mean by the shadow. From 2406, the kings live for less than 350 years, and from as early as 2618, the ruler's life decreases bellow 300 years and continues to diminish.

I speak of "the shadow" in a broader sense. 2618 would be a fine date to work with. I was even thinking earlier, perhaps when about the time of Tar-Atanamir, when the Kings started to cling to life until it was torn from them.

[Lalaith]

Fascinating though the discussion about the lifespan of the Numenoreans might be, it doesn't help us with the sticky issue of Dior and his descendants.

The Elros thing was resolved by the Valar at the end of the First Age, 583. It has no relevance to the status of Dior in ca 500.

[Lalaith]

But the Edain were granted their long lifespan three times that of ordinary men, by the Valar, when they left for Numenor. Elros got 500 years, but again, all the references I find have him getting that lifespan at the time he made his choice, not before. So Aragorn, as his descendant, was getting the grace of the Valar that had been granted at the end of the First Age.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

But the Edain were granted their long lifespan three times that of ordinary men, by the Valar, when they left for Numenor. Elros got 500 years, but again, all the references I find have him getting that lifespan at the time he made his choice, not before. So Aragorn, as his descendant, was getting the grace of the Valar that had been granted at the end of the First Age.

There is an age difference, though, between the Line of Elros and the average Edainic Númenorean. In the case of Elros' descendents, until the shadow fell on Númenor, four hundred years was the standard lifespan, whereas the Normal Númenorean only lived 250-300 years. Even as the lifespan of the Elrosians dropped after they began to rebel against the Valar, they seem to have consistantly had longer lifespans than the average around them. Elendil lived past three hundred, and died in battle not of old age. By the time of Aragorn, I agree, the longevity is simply general Númenorean, but in earlier times there was a marked difference.

[Lalaith]

Yes, of course, Form. But my point was that the Edain (men) did not get their long lifespans until the end of the First Age. Which does not explain how Earendil and Elwing seemed so youthful in their 70s, in 573 FA.

[Elmo]

Didn't Beor last a long time though?

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Yes, of course, Form. But my point was that the Edain (men) did not get their long lifespans until the end of the First Age. Which does not explain how Earendil and Elwing seemed so youthful in their 70s, in 573 FA.

They weren't. They were born c. 503 and the voyages of Earendil began in 534 (aged 31), the Kinslaying at the mouths of Sirion was 538 and Vingilot arrived in Valinor in 542, when Earendil and Elwing were 39. They made their choice immediately.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

By the time of Aragorn, I agree, the longevity is simply general Númenorean, but in earlier times there was a marked difference.

It was not the only marked difference early on as those of line of Elros had a distinct advantage "in life-span, vigour, or ability" [Note 27; Aldarion and Erendis] among their peers. I'm not sure how long these differences held among the Faithful. Elendil's line seemed to exhibit superior traits during the Downfall and even Isildur was said to be "a man of strength and endurance that few even of the Dúnedain of that age could equal." [Disaster of the Gladden Fields]

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Legolas

Even Theoden, with no immortal ancestors whatsoever, is still leading an army and fighting at age 71 when he is slain at Pelennor Fields. Éomer goes on to live to 93.

Theoden is descended from the line of Princes in Dol Amroth so he tecnically does have immortal ancestors. His mother Morwen was actually a Dúnadan. Even his niece Éowyn took after his mother Morwen. Theoden's own son and nephew were both taller than other Rohirrim. The kings of Rohan seemed to average around 79 year lifespan. 60*, 58, 101, 89, 86, 80, 74, 73, 68*, 72, 90, 71, 60*, 73, 83, 75, 71*, 93.