Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Raynor

To me, the later seems to be case
As you have stated yourself, Glorfindel enhanced status appears after his death, as all reincarnated elves are, IIRC. That passage you quoted is irrelevant for Glorfindel at the time of his battle; the same goes for Echtelion. In a "mirror" argument, if he was greatly enhanced afterwards, his initial power, compared to his new one, is greatly reduced.

And yet both were capable of defeating (presumably incarnate) Balrogs before their enhancement. Neither of them were typical Elves, both being considered among the mightiest warriors in Gondolin. I'll grant that they can be considered examples of "transcendence" of the limitations of their spiritual station in M-E, but they were by no means normal even prior to their near-apotheosis.

Additionally, Maiar are weaker in an incarnate state than in their natural form. I hinted at this above, but it's worth being specific about. Balrogs that were defeated by Incarnates can be assumed to be incarnated (death being otherwise impossible) and thus weaker than those primeval Spirits of Fire who first joined Melkor.

[Raynor]

I would also mention that the body of the elves, while in Arda is being weakened by the marring of Melkor and consumed by the fire of their spirit. I wonder if the diminishing of the balrog's power might have been balanced to an extent by Melkor.

I am also curious if by "they were by no means normal even prior to their near-apotheosis" you mean that they are enhanced by the light of Valinor.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I would also mention that the body of the elves, while in Arda is being weakened by the marring of Melkor and consumed by the fire of their spirit. I wonder if the diminishing of the balrog's power might have been balanced to an extent by Melkor.

Corruption isn't a good thing even for baddies. It could be argued that corruption is what eventually bound Melkor, Sauron, and Balrogs to their material bodies, and weakened their spirits to the point that they could be rendered impotent by physical destruction.

That said, Morgoth's power at the time that he was responsible for the shaping of Middle-earth wasn't wholly corrupting; he originally loved light, and was nevertheless one of Eru's firstborn. Melkor corrupted Arda in many ways after it came into existence, but his connection to it was far deeper than that. He made his indelible imprint on Arda before it even became physical: in fact, before he ever committed any great evil. His part in the Music of the Ainur was, for all its contentiousness, still considered part of Eru's greater theme, its utter origin being claimed by him. Could the Music have included those crimes he later perpetrated?

Moreover, I'd say that at some point Melkor was severed from his fundamental connection to Arda. Arda was, at least for a time, "Morgoth's Ring": he and it were bound together because of his dominant hand in shaping it, and the result of the destruction of either would be the destruction of the other. Yet, in a late essay (within Myths Transformed, I believe), Melkor is said finally to have been executed as a mortal. If his connection to Arda was ultimately cut with no cataclysmic consequences for Arda, his corruption and diminution must have been driving him farther from that original vitality he had as Arda's counterpart. His later evil was thus unnatural, while the primeval theme of discord he wove into the music can still be considered natural; an observable aspect of nature, free from and above the qualification of "right" or "wrong", as Melkor himself was in his beginning.

Anyway, my point is that I don't think "Arda Marred" was a pool from which bad things received Melkor's lingering evil.

I am also curious if by "they were by no means normal even prior to their near-apotheosis" you mean that they are enhanced by the light of Valinor.

Actually, I'm not really prepared to speculate on what made Ecthelion and Glorfindel the mightiest of the Elves of Gondolin. Still, were they not extraordinary?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by obloquy

It could be argued that corruption is what eventually bound Melkor, Sauron, and Balrogs to their material bodies, and weakened their spirits to the point that they could be rendered impotent by physical destruction.

While I admit this possibility, I also consider it is mainly their evil deeds which consume/ diminish their power. Concerning their vulnerability to physical destruction I would return to your previous observation that they are weakened by incarnation with this quote from Myths Transformed:

...by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. When released they would, of course, like Sauron, be 'damned': i.e. reduced to impotence, infinitely recessive: still hating but unable more and more to make it effective physically (or would not a very dwindled dead Orc-state be a poltergeist?).

Originally Posted by obloquy

the result of the destruction of either would be the destruction of the other.

I believe the passage in question is this:

Originally Posted by Notes on motives in the Silmarillion, iii

The whole of 'Middle-earth' was Morgoth's Ring, though temporarily his attention was mainly upon the North-west. Unless swiftly successful, War against him might well end in reducing all Middle-earth to chaos, possibly even all Arda. It is easy to say: 'It was the task and function of the Elder King to govern Arda and make it possible for the Children of Eru to live in it unmolested.' But the dilemma of the Valar was this: Arda could only be liberated by a physical battle; but a probable result of such a battle was the irretrievable ruin of Arda.

In my interpretation, that the destruction Arda would be a result of war, not of the destruction of Melkor in itself.

Originally Posted by obloquy

Yet, in a late essay (within Myths Transformed, I believe), Melkor is said finally to have been executed as a mortal.

I agree:

Morgoth was thus actually made captive in physical form, and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to NAmo Mandos as judge – and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is killed like one of the Incarnates.

It is previously mentioned that this was possible because he became weakened and chained to his body.

Originally Posted by obloquy

His later evil was thus unnatural, while the primeval theme of discord he wove into the music can still be considered natural

I would speculate that his corruption was in direct connection with his part in the Ainulindale:

But even as Ulmo spoke, and while the Ainur were yet gazing upon this vision, it was taken away and hidden from their sight; and it seemed to them that in that moment they perceived a new thing, Darkness, which they had not known before except in thought.

Originally Posted by obloquy

Anyway, my point is that I don't think "Arda Marred" was a pool from which bad things received Melkor's lingering evil.

There is an interesting note in Myths Transformed concerning Sauron and Melkor's corruption :

Sauron, however, inherited the 'corruption' of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate.

although I agree it hinges on whether corruption is a power to be used or a state of facts.

Originally Posted by obloquy

Still, were they not extraordinary?

Indeed!

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Raynor

While I admit this possibility, I also consider it is mainly their evil deeds which consume/ diminish their power.

You're partly right. It's actually not just evil deeds, but any activities reserved for Incarnates. While these activities are not evil for Ainur, they still may be argued to represent a corruption of their original forms.

I believe the passage in question is this:

In my interpretation, that the destruction Arda would be a result of war, not of the destruction of Melkor in itself.

Yes. But the paragraph continues:

Moreover, the final eradication of Sauron (as a power directing evil) was achievable by the destruction of the Ring. No such eradication of Morgoth was possible, since this required the complete disintegration of the 'matter' of Arda.

I admit that Tolkien never fully explored this, but the important thing is that he's indicating a parallel between Sauron and his Ring, and Morgoth and Arda. In Sauron's case, Tolkien says that he could never be wholly defeated in direct combat since his Ring would forever anchor him and provide a way to regenerate. Similarly, Morgoth could never be totally destroyed while his "ring" existed. Tolkien entertained the possibility that someone might break Sauron's will and claim his power as his own, but it seems improbable that the same could be done with Morgoth's power, regardless of how much Morgoth himself had ultimately dwindled.

I would speculate that his corruption was in direct connection with his part in the Ainulindale:

I'm not quite sure what you mean. The vision was here removed from them by Iluvatar. The Darkness may not represent Melkor at all, but something different, because we notice that the Ainur had known darkness before in thought. Darkness is also not always badness. If I remember correctly, there's a passage somewhere about Sauron (I believe) perverting the darkness of Mirkwood to a thing of fear. Forgive me for having no clue where it might be: I no longer have searchable texts on my computer. The Darkness seen by the Ainur could merely be a vision of the unknown, that which has not yet been unfolded and "illuminated."

Then again, it may also represent Melkor's later evil, but even then it was only a hint of it. In any case, it does not represent his hand in the formation of Arda itself.

There is an interesting note in Myths Transformed concerning Sauron and Melkor's corruption :
although I agree it hinges on whether corruption is a power to be used or a state of facts.

In fact, Tolkien gives us even more help on the issue going so far as to tell us that

It was this Morgoth-element in matter, indeed, which was a prerequisite for such 'magic' and other evils as Sauron practised with it and upon it.

And still I would argue that this portion of Melkor in everything was not necessarily a thing of evil, though it resulted in a corruption of all things. Nature is not entirely harmonious, but neither is it evil. It can be cruel, but it is still not evil; it can even be unjust, but we do not expect it to be judged for it. This coincides with Melkor's original station in Arda, in which he was answerable only to Iluvatar, and though Iluvatar rebuked him, he did not condemn him as evil. Melkor's song was discordant, like nature, but it still found its "uttermost source" in Iluvatar. Though later, "once Melkor incarnates himself and begins to break the moral laws of the Incarnates, he is no longer above those laws and is then subject to condemnation." (Quote is mine, from another thread in The Books.)

We do occasionally run into a problem when we try to take everything Tolkien wrote and make it work together. The essays in which he correlates Arda to The Ring seems to be at odds with the one that tells us that Morgoth was executed, and maybe it does represent a shift in Tolkien's thoughts. Still, I think they can be reconciled, which was my intent in my previous post.

I wonder if a mod would be so good as to move these last couple posts into a new thread in The Books forum?