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Old 03-07-2007, 03:04 PM   #1
Raynor
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Was it down to a mixture of fate & luck, or through the power in them?
All of them, I suppose. However, given the exact same conditions, I doubt that a certain fight between the same opponents, if repeated, will always have the same outcome (unless the disparities in advantages are enormous).
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There would be no luck or even fate involved if Gandalf fought the Witch King
Well, this promises to be a ping-pong ; why would you exclude luck or fate?
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Old 03-07-2007, 04:21 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Raynor
All of them, I suppose. However, given the exact same conditions, I doubt that a certain fight between the same opponents, if repeated, will always have the same outcome (unless the disparities in advantages are enormous).
Well, this promises to be a ping-pong ; why would you exclude luck or fate?

How would the Witch King use luck to defeat Gandalf? If Gandalf had a back spasm & the Witch King dealt a vital blow?
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Old 03-07-2007, 04:46 PM   #3
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How would the Witch King use luck to defeat Gandalf?
There is no single clue as to what abilities either of them would use in an actual one-on-one confrontation. That is why I consider your claim that luck has no place there as unwarranted, at least for the time being - we have no evidence of whatsoever; it is an "argument from ignorance", a fallacy.
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Old 03-07-2007, 05:26 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Raynor
There is no single clue as to what abilities either of them would use in an actual one-on-one confrontation. That is why I consider your claim that luck has no place there as unwarranted, at least for the time being - we have no evidence of whatsoever; it is an "argument from ignorance", a fallacy.
Gandalf would use his ring plus supernatural powers of a maiar; the Witch King only has his lesser ring, modest sorcery & the added demonic force to help counter the maiar. Gandalf has a formiddable elvish blade, a mightier steed, & likely as not a higher power potential to draw upon. Unless there is a weakness in either where luck could lead to their downfall, it should be ruled out. The only character acting rash & overconfident in this scene is the Witch King.

Above all Gandalf prevented the Lord of the Nazgul entering Minas Tirith, & is therefore victorious overall.

Last edited by Mansun; 03-07-2007 at 05:37 PM.
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Old 03-07-2007, 05:39 PM   #5
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Gandalf would use his ring plus supernatural powers of a maiar; the Witch King only has his lesser ring & added demonic force to help counter the maiar. Gandalf has a formiddable elvish blade, a mightier steed, & likely as not a higher power potential to draw upon.
I will repeat, we have no clue how these abilities will be used, how they are countered, what is their effects on the opponent, if Gandalf and the witch-king would necessarily make the same decisions each and every time, etc.

Nothing warrants an automatic result; such a result is possible only if we would be dealing with a very, very simple situation. This is not the case; quite the contrary.
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Above all Gandalf prevented the Lord of the Nazgul entering Minas Tirith, & is therefore victorious overall.
He is victorious overall because of the whole "whole train of human resistance, that he himself has kindled and organized" (letter #156); there isn't just one cause to the departure of the witch-king, and if victory occured, it was due to mass organisation, not to personal martial abilties proved in combat.
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Last edited by Raynor; 03-07-2007 at 05:44 PM.
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Old 03-08-2007, 06:10 AM   #6
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'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.'
Mansun - re your quote from the book above - as I said earlier, does it really PROVE how strong a character is if the character himself says how 'strong' they are? I put it to you that the above is Gandalf's OPINION.

Whereas, for example, the Numenorian blade that Merry used WAS proved to help destroy the Witch King as it was mentioned in the text by the 'narrator'

but to add a further twist to this, can we even trust the 'narrator' of the story, as the LOTR was supposedly handed down from the notes taken by Bilbo / Frodo / Sam after the War of the Ring was completed? What do THEY know of this supernatural blade that was used on the Witch King? - maybe I should delete this last paragraph as it may send as down another cul-de-sac of opinion, denial and arguments...........
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Old 03-08-2007, 06:23 AM   #7
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Aragorn knew:
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Originally Posted by The Departure of Boromir, TTT
- No orc-tools these! he said. They were borne by the hobbits. Doubtless the Orcs despoiled them, but feared to keep the knives, knowing them for what they are: work of Westernesse, wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor
In the prologue of FotR, it is stated that an intermediary copy of the Red Book was made at the request of Ellesar; "in Minas Tirith it received much annotation, and many corrections".
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