Seems Like Someone's Rooting for the Wrong Side

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by Raynor

When did I define norm as majority view?

That's what a norm is. Normal. Something widely accepted by most people.

Originally Posted by Raynor

My argument was that siding with the evil actions of the orcs may contradict one's own morality [if one holds various moral values to be true], regardless what other view as moral or not.

Surely there is no argument then? If one holds that it is immoral to side with orcs (as you do), and sides with orcs, then this is immoral to that person. If one holds that siding with orcs is not immoral, and sides with orcs, then this is not immoral to that person.

Originally Posted by Salacia

I find that debating the morality of characters in Lord of the Rings is hard to do, since, as a children's story the moral lesson was put in by the author himself. There's a reason why Frodo is endearing and Sauron is a fiery eyeball, and that's because beautiful is good and ugly is bad, end of story.

Strider looks foul, not to mention Ghan-buri-Ghan!

[Raynor]

That's what a norm is. Normal. Something widely accepted by most people.

You are correct; my use of the word relied on equating norm with any moral principle; fortunately, a quick look in the dictionary cleared that up. Sorry for the blunder. Glad I learned something new

If one holds that it is immoral to side with orcs

That was not my argument. I argued that if one believes that deligthing in evil deeds is immoral, then if siding with the orcs, or 'cheering them' as one debater has put it, means derriving pleasure from their deeds, then this is an immoral instance.

Strider looks foul

Hm, when is he described as such?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Hm, when is he described as such?

LotR, FotR, Chapter 'Strider':

[Frodo:] 'I think one of his [the Enemy's] spies would - well, seem fairer and feel fouler, if you understand.'
'I see,' laughed Strider. 'I look foul and feel fair. Is that it?'

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

LotR, FotR, Chapter 'Strider':

I was aware of that quote; however, Frodo does not reffer to Strider as looking foul, but strange, and Strider's play of words, esspecially his refference to the password (all that is gold does not glitter), show a discrepancy between his humble looks [with mud on his boots, trave-stained cloack, hood over head] and true majesty. Later on, when he doesn't have to be disguised, his fair looks are evident.

[Salacia Deloresista]

Just being covered by mud and dirt does not make him foul. He's dirty because he's a traveler, and because at that point in the story he's denying his heritage. But, he's also in a serious relationship with the most beautiful elf since Luthien. He's dirty, yes, but not foul and disfigured like an orc or goblin.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Salacia Deloresista

, and because at that point in the story he's denying his heritage.

I think that that is a concept only of the films ... in the book he may not flaunt his status amongst the people of Bree who have no appreciation of the Rangers (until they go), but he is not in denial..... otherwise he would hardly lug the broken sword around with him at all times in a somewhat impractical fashion

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by Raynor

That was not my argument. I argued that if one believes that deligthing in evil deeds is immoral, then if siding with the orcs, or 'cheering them' as one debater has put it, means derriving pleasure from their deeds, then this is an immoral instance.

Hmm. I think the real problem here is the word evil, which I have conveniently emboldened. What constitutes an "evil act" is very difficult to decide, as the adjective "evil" can be applied to more or less any act or thought.

I suppose you are right in that, if "support of antagonists," "support of those who deny the existence of a Higher Power," "support of quarrelsome beings" or support of some other characteristic of orcs is defined as an "evil act," then supporting an orc is indeed immoral.

Which means more or less that, if you define evil as support of orcs, then supporting orcs is immoral!

Originally Posted by Salacia

He's dirty, yes, but not foul and disfigured like an orc or goblin.

I suppose so. But to take the opposite argument, Sauron, for example, was meant to take a fair form.

Originally Posted by Raynor

The intent of 99.999% of pornography in the movie is clear; they want to promote pornography, it is an end, not a means to an end.

I just found this and, although it's not relevant, I thought I'd mention that the Catalonian government is offering grants to local pornographers to create pornography in the Catalan language to "promote Catalan in every medium." This made me laugh.