Denethor's plunge

[alatar]

The first few layers of skin burnt from the Steward rather quickly, leaving him in so much agony that the pain center in his brain shut down and went home for the day. Purportedly there is evidence that when an animal (and possibly human) is in pain and about to die that the body can shut off the pain (why bother sending the message) or send in enough endorphines to smooth things over.

Also, we may want to test the effect of a large intact of tomatoes has on one's flame retardance and running speed (Don't be stupid, by the by). And, one may think that the flames reduced the Steward's mass, making it a little easier to run, and the flames surely gave some lift as well (hot air rising and all).

But in the end methinks that, at that last moment, Denethor finally came to his senses, left despair behind and ran out to due his duty, diving for a Battle Troll.

[Celegost]

If youve got a chainmail hauberk and a life-sized replica of Minas Tirith,
yeah!

[Knight of Gondor]

Your post is a delightful mix of reason and insanity. I would agree that our mind may not process the pain if we're experiencing it to extremes, but that doesn't undo the actual damage done. Flames severe enough to burn away layers of skin would be severe enough to be incapacitating.

I assume you're kidding about Denethor trying to take on a troll?

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Knight of Gondor

I assume you're kidding about Denethor trying to take on a troll?

I would say he was...haha

By the way, on a serious note, on this day in Middle-earth (March 15th) Denethor burnt himself on the pyre. Alas for Denethor!

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Knight of Gondor

I would agree that our mind may not process the pain if we're experiencing it to extremes, but that doesn't undo the actual damage done. Flames severe enough to burn away layers of skin would be severe enough to be incapacitating.

It's noted that third degree burns are not painful; however, there would be associated 1st and 2nd degree, so...

The biggest problem I can see is holding one's breath for the amount of time it takes to run from Rath Dínen to the wall outside the Citadel. Those flames are going to drink oxygen from any nearby source, and that would include lungs. We can assume that Denethor, having traveled the path many times, could run the distance without sight (for whatever reason), but without air? Even if he were an Olympic speedster, that would take about a minute, and a long minute that would be.

I assume you're kidding about Denethor trying to take on a troll?

Really? Why else the effort?

"In later days, when at the end of a long day, in the tavens a man might order a 'Flaming Steward,' and drink a salute to Denethor the Brave, he who gave all at the end in the defense of his city, as commemorated by the eternal flaming stature (see attached) standing inside the Gate of Minas Tirith, where the Last Steward fell, felling a foul foe in his fall."

[Celegost]

He He He....funny picture

[Essex]

of course PJ's rath dinen could have been directly under where we see denethor run - and a little tunnel that brings him up just outside the sheer drop off the edge.

and what always amuses me is that we moan about things not being physically possible i.e. denethor's run / gandalf catching up with the balrog etc, but we don't mind the fact that wearing a ring can make you invisible!!!!

[Celegost]

I agree....who cares about the science? And yes, there could have been a tunnel/stairs/extra fast escalator....

[alatar]

Gandalf was in the vicinity with Narya, and do we know just how far a member of the Mearas can kick one of noble blood? Every little bit helps...

[Knight of Gondor]

Originally Posted by Essex

of course PJ's rath dinen could have been directly under where we see denethor run - and a little tunnel that brings him up just outside the sheer drop off the edge.

and what always amuses me is that we moan about things not being physically possible i.e. denethor's run / gandalf catching up with the balrog etc, but we don't mind the fact that wearing a ring can make you invisible!!!!

I have photographic proof that that would be, as the immortal Vizzini said, inconceivable, in fact that the entire run of Denethor would be completely and totally inconceivable!


Overhead shot of the pinnacle of Gondor.


Photo demonstration of the length of the across the courtyard.


Distance of the bridge Denethor would have needed to run.


Better shot showing the incredible length of the bridge to Rath Dínen, as well as showing Denethor would have had to run up some flights of steps!


Final shot showing the path Denethor traversed to get to the tip and launch himself into a flaming oblivion.

From these pictures, IT IS CLEAR THAT DENETHOR COULD NOT HAVE MADE THIS LONG-DISTANCE SPRINT WHILE AFLAME. This dash would have taken him at least three minutes to make, counting his trip back through the hallways leading back to the Silent Street, the long bridge, the flights of stairs and the courtyard.

Conclusion? The guy made it back to the courtyard and doused himself in the water by the tree. However, Shadowfax (having not yet fully exacted his equine vengance) chased him down with a torch and reignited him, leaving the sprightly Steward no choice but to vault himself over the edge.

Plan B Conclusion: Nazgul (not Witchking) picked Denethor up and carried him a piece before putting him down because its claws were getting scorched.

[davem]

Don't know if it helps, but using Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-earth, which is noted for its accuracy, the distance from the Hallows to the Minas Tirith 'Precipice Viewpoint' is approx 3 miles & involves a climb (as has been noted) from the fifth to the seventh levels. This being impossible one must suspect that it is not actually Denethor who is seen falling but one of his guards.

It seems that the most logical conclusion is that Denethor was grabbed by one of his guards just outside the Hallows, who attempted to extinguish the flames. Said guard, tragically, caught fire himself & in his panic left the dying Steward & fled looking for help. He in turn ran into another guard who attempted to put him out & suffered the same fate as his colleague. This event was repeated a number of times & left all Denethor's personal guard dead along the three miles distance. A kind of horrific 'relay', where the flames were passed along from guard to guard.

This tragic event was commemorated in later years by the famous 'Minas Tirith Relay Run' involving a flaming baton being passed by runners starting at Rath Dinen & culminating in the igniting of a Dummy at the edge of the 'Precipice Viewpoint' being set alight & catapulted off the edge, to fall into the great Courtyard before the gates at the First Level.

'The Fall of the 100th Guard Festival' as it came to be known was originally celebrated every ten years at midnight on the anniversary of Denethor's death & became so famous throughout Middle-earth that travellers of all races would come from across the length & breadth of Middle-earth to witness the spectacle, crowding the streets & spending lots of money.

Unfortunately, the popularity (& the resulting cash benefit for the city) lead first of all to the festival being increased to once in five years, then annually & finally to every Saturday night. Drunkenness & general rowdyness increased to the point that locals began to complain about the 'yobs invading our lovely city & making a nuissance of themselves' & many visitors who couldn't wait for the official event would sneak up to the Viewpoint & throw their own home made dummies off the top. This resulted in two main problems which eventually lead to the event being cancelled - first, flaming dummies would pile up in the courtyard, making access into the city a difficult thing, & secondly, the Burns Unit of the Houses of Healing found they couldn't cope with the numbers of locals & visitors who fund themselves on the receiving end of a flaming dummy hitting them from 5,000 feet. It became a bit of a sick joke among some of the locals, who began making & selling tunics emblazoned with the legend 'I went to Minas Tirith for the 'The Fall of the 100th Guard Festival' & all I got was these lousy third degree burns'. An attempt to make Dwarf sized tunics emblazoned with 'I was a burned Dwarf' failed miserably & lead to the violent murders of a number of tunic vendors at the hands of angry dwarves.

In the end it was decided that for the public good the event would cease & the 'official' version of events was declared to be that Denethor had burned to death in Rath Dinen, no guards had perished in flames & that none of the above had actually happened. Tourism in Gondor suffered but the locals bore it stoically (apart from the tunic printers, who raised a riot on hearing the official declaration of the end of the festival & attacked the local Civil Servants, dragging them from their offices (coincidentally on the Fifth level) all along the route to the edge of the Viewpoint, setting many of them on fire & hurling them off the edge, in a desperate attempt to start up another 'tradition'. The rioters claimed that this was a spontaneous outburst of anger, but the discovery of a batch of tunics emprinted with the legend '1st Weekly 'Fall of the Flaming Civil Servants' (who weren't set on fire & pushed over the edge by the Tunic Printers Guild of Minas Tirith & anyone who says they did it are liars because we were all somewhere else doing other stuff & it was most probably the pressure of the job which lead to a mass sucide on their part) Commemoration Festival' was seen as proof positive that the whole thing had been planned.

Initially there was a demand by the survivng colleagues of the dead Civil Servants that the Tunic Printers should suffer the same fate as their own colleagues & be dragged up to the Viewpoint & ignited & catapulted from the edge (they were working on their own tunic designs but took so long to come up with a legend they could all agree on, submitting various versions, in triplicate, to their immediate & senior managers, bringing in third party consultants to 'think outside the box', advertising managers to choose the most effective colours & fonts for the lettering, that in the end nothing came of it, & the whole thing faded into blessed obscurity & everyone went back to what they had done before the whole thing had gotten so far out of hand.