Did Gollum deserve death?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Tut tut Mr Sauce. Now, would that really hold up in court? I think not. :P

Well, if we are going to apply courtroom standards, then there might be some doubt as to whether Gollum actually murdered Deagol. After all, there is a suggestion that Gandalf extracted his confession under duress.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Those are Tolkien;s only intentions - as a great artist might merely 'suggest' something with paint he does it with words and it's up to you how you see things like that.

I disagree. Tolkien's purpose (or, to exclude any C-thread style debate ( ), one of his purposes) is to tell us, his readers, a story. In doing so, he relays certain events to us. Some of those he intends us to take as fact. In my view, this is one such event.

Why would Gandalf seek to influence Frodo's impression of Gollum with tales of infant cannibalism if he did not himself believe them to be true? If Gandalf considered them to be mere Woodsman gossip, it would be highly irresponsible for him to colour Frodo's opinion of Gollum in this way. The same applies with regard to the impression that Tolkien gives to his readers of Gollum. We are meant to believe that Gollum carries out these awful deeds. And, when we meet him, we are meant nevertheless to pity him. This, in my view, is where the subtlety lies in Tolkien's characterisation of Gollum.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Most of all, we're not heeding Gandalf's warning not to be too hasty to come to judgements that are beyond our ken.

Hang on. I would say that we are perfectly entitled to form a view as to what Gollum did and whether such things were right or wrong. The point that Gandalf (and Tolkien) was making was that Frodo (and we, the readers) should not be hasty in dealing out death in judgment. In other words, whatever view we might come to as to the rights and wrongs of Gollum's deeds, we should not be so hasty as to condemn him to death for them. That said, had one of the Woodsman caught Gollum in the act, as it were, one might understand if he were to have put an axe through the wretched creature's neck.

[Boromir88]

Just a quick comment regarding this:

If Gandalf considered them to be mere Woodsman gossip, it would be highly irresponsible for him to colour Frodo's opinion of Gollum in this way.~Sauce

Gandalf was capable of making errors in judgement and had some lapses. As Tolkien addresses in Letter 214:

"With regard to (1) Gandalf certainly says at first 'I guess' p. 62; but that is in accordance with his character and wisdom. In more modern language he would have said 'I deduce', referring to matters that had not come under his direct observation, but on which he had formed a conclusion based on study."

And some of Gandalf's conclusions could end up being wrong. So perhaps Gandalf could serve as an expert to share his conclusions with the court...but he's not some all-seeing eyeball here.

I think the Ring's power over people was directly connected with the people's tendency towards evil before they had or saw the Ring. Just look at how different people handled it!~Folwren

True, but the Ring effects and changes everyone...just in different ways and the time varies from person to person. However, eventually the Ring does twist everyone, if given the time.

Bilbo gets quite snappy when Gandalf tells him to give up the Ring. And Bilbo would not have let the Ring go had it not been for Gandalf. As Gandalf tells Frodo, Bilbo did let go of the Ring, but 'I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really done it. He needed all my help, too.' (The Shadow of the Past)

Frodo, claims the Ring for himself in the end. Yes, Tolkien says in Letter 246 that at that point (in the Sammath Naur) the Ring's power was so strong it was impossible for anyone to destroy...nevertheless Frodo succumbed and claimed the Ring as his own.

Gandalf:

'Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused.'~The Shadow of the Past

Sam also reaches a point where he faces the 'pull' of the Ring, he was able to resist it and cast it out of his head...but what if he's faced with that situation again and in a more desperate situation? Had the Ring not been destroyed in the Sammath Naur what would Sam have done, what would the Ring do to try to get itself out?

The Ring is one smart cookie...sure not everyone murders when it comes to the Ring, because not everyone was as 'mean' as Smeagol was. The point is that the Ring causes people to act in ways that they normally wouldn't. It dramatically changes a person's personality. Bilbo as you and I have mentioned lashed out at Gandalf...now Bilbo didn't kill Gandalf, but there is no doubt that was extremely out of Bilbo's character. The Ring plays a huge role in twisting someone's personality. Sure not everyone feels the need to kill over it, but nevertheless it causes individuals to act in ways they never would.

For parting words what does Gandalf say about Gollum's feelings on the Ring:

'He was altogther wretched. He hated the dark, and he hated light more: he hated everything, and the Ring most of all.'
[...]
'You ought to begin to understand, Frodo, after all you have heard,' said Gandalf. 'He hated it and loved it, as he hated and loved himself. He could not get rid of it. He had no will left in the matter.'~The Shadow of the Past

Well Sauce I simply felt the matter and influence of the Ring was being overlooked in this case. People are so easy to condemn Mr. Gollum for what he did. Sure he was weak-minded and instantly killed over the Ring, but the Ring is at the very center of the evil here. Not everyone reacts as viciously as Gollum did, when it came to the Ring, but it does twist everyone.

I think we all understand and forgive Boromir for his attack on Frodo for the very reasons you have mentioned...Gollum it's a lot harder because we don't see that atonement...but that doesn't chage the fact that the Ring is at the heart of the problem; just as it was at the heart of causing Boromir to attack Frodo.

Gollum was very close to redemption, he had been at a 'crucial point' as Tolkien describes and when Sam mistakes Gollum's 'pawing' at Frodo...Sam over-reacts and Gollum's chance of redemption is gone. That was Gollum's crucial moment where he was nearly redeemed, and it's a lesson to us all that even good-hearted, loving people like Sam can misjudge, over-react, and cause bad problems despite having no intention to do so.